Thoughts on Torque Converter Shudder Problem

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R80RS

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I have a 2004 Ford Freestar with 225,000 miles on the clock. We purchased the vehicle new 10 years ago and have performed transmission service according to Ford’s recommended schedule with Motorcraft ATF and filters. The torque converter was replaced by my Ford dealer last year under a recall. The purpose of the recall was to address problems in this model with sudden failure of the torque converter output shaft. The vehicle had 206,000 miles on it at the time of the TC replacement so the new converter is outside Ford’s 12,000 mile warranty on replacement parts. New Motorcraft ATF and filter were installed at that time.

Lately the vehicle will occasionally produce a strong vibration similar to driving over a washboard road. This vibration typically occurs when the vehicle is hot between 35 and 45 MPH, and goes away immediately if I let off the throttle. Inspection of the suspension and steering systems show nothing wrong there. Diagnostically, this feels like torque converter shudder. The dealer looked at it this week, and claims they can’t reproduce the problem. I think they did not spend enough time driving it to get to the hot operating temperature where the problem occurs.

I’ve read that ATF change can often address this problem, but I have a hard time believing that the new Motorcraft ATF is degraded after only 19k miles. I’ve also seen various friction modifiers and tranny additives marketed to eliminate AT shudder, but I’m very reluctant to use a snake oil fix unless there is some real science or engineering behind the additive. I’m also reluctant to invest significant $$$ into this vehicle given its age and high mileage so it’s doubtful I’d pay to replace major components. I’d like to get one more reliable year out of this vehicle before looking for a replacement. Given all that, can anyone recommend a fix for this? Is it worth doing an ATF change, and if so, is there a Mercon V ATF that is known to be more “shudder resistant”? I’ve heard Amsoil ATF and Valvoline Max Life synthetic ATF are good in higher mileage ATs – are either of these worth a look? How about an additive? Or is approaching this as an ATF problem putting a Band-Aid on a hemorrhage? Any and all thoughts on this are welcome!
 
It's difficult to say what could be causing this issue. How strong is the vibration? Does it just appear without warning or does it gradually get stronger with use/heat?

I agree that the fluid should be OK after 19k if a good quality fluid was used at that time. Do you have records that show what was used and how much?

If you're sure the transmission is the source then it might be worthwhile to do a fluid swap. Any MercV should suffice but I find Valvoline Maxlife Dex/Merc to be a better product and value than most. Red Line and Amsoil do have better fluids available but at double the price (or more?).

I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a fluid to get one more year. I'd spend that money on a new-ish vehicle that I'm keeping for life.
 
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Originally Posted By: martinq
It's difficult to say what could be causing this issue. How strong is the vibration? Does it just appear without warning or does it gradually get stronger with use/heat?


I'd describe it as pretty strong, like driving over train tracks but more continuous. Occurs most frequently when trying to maintain speed by applying slight throttle in the 35 to 45 MPH range, goes away immediately when I let off the throttle and allow the vehicle to coast.
 
Originally Posted By: R80RS
Occurs most frequently when trying to maintain speed by applying slight throttle in the 35 to 45 MPH range, goes away immediately when I let off the throttle and allow the vehicle to coast.

So it goes away if you apply more throttle?

I'd practice exposing this issue while driving and when you're sure about it, arrange for a test-drive with one of the service techs or go to another dealer if you can. They can't reproduce the problem because the problem isn't obvious or the instructions were too vague.

The last time I experienced something like this it was due to a bad/failing bearing. When it was under light-load it would chatter. This is fluid/temperature/load dependent and the techs could not expose the issue by themselves.
 
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I have used a product called shudder fix. Comes in a tube and is a friction modifier. I think it is made by Lubegard. They make quality stuff.
 
I've had luck fixing shuddering problems on my fords by swapping to Mercron V and adding a bottle of Lubegard Red. Both are made specifically to address shudder problems.

I also agree with checking coils. On my friends navigator it would sort of feel like a torque converter shudder and it turns out he had 2 bad coils.
 
Lubegard makes a product call Dr. Tranny, which is supposed to "eliminate" tranny shudder.
You can try that or maybe a bottle of Lubegard Red.

Out of curiosity, what are the chances the dealer put in the wrong tranny fluid?
 
Originally Posted By: 95busa
Check coil. My 4.2 f150 had a bad coil pack that did that.


Thanks for the tip, I didn't considered that. I also have an F150 with the 4.6 that had a coil go bad, so I'm kind of familiar with the feeling. This shudder seems different, but I'll check the coils out just to be thorough.
 
Yes, marginal ignition components can cause an issue in that range first due to the Fuel economy programming up shifting as early as possible and locking the T/C as early as possible to the point its lugging the engine a bit.
Otherwise, I would try changing the fluid. Have you checked it? Still red/pink? Smell burned?
 
Originally Posted By: EricF
Lubegard makes a product call Dr. Tranny, which is supposed to "eliminate" tranny shudder.
You can try that or maybe a bottle of Lubegard Red.

Out of curiosity, what are the chances the dealer put in the wrong tranny fluid?


Anything's possible I guess. This dealer handles Ford & Mazda, and they are generally pretty sharp. If they put in the wrong stuff it would probably have to be either Type F (unlikely), Mercon SV or Mercon LV or whatever Mazdas take.

Have you ever used either of the Lubegard products?
 
I'm not a believer in magic-elixer-products-in-a-can type of cures, but I'd also suggest LubeGuard Red. I changed tranny fluid in my high-mileage Aerostar to Mercon V about a year ago and I began to experience the converter shudder right after that. One bottle of LubeGard Red immediately stopped it and it's been fine since.
 
Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
Yes, marginal ignition components can cause an issue in that range first due to the Fuel economy programming up shifting as early as possible and locking the T/C as early as possible to the point its lugging the engine a bit.
Otherwise, I would try changing the fluid. Have you checked it? Still red/pink? Smell burned?


Fluid looks normal, no darkening or burnt smell. I will definitely look into the ignition system as well.
 
Originally Posted By: martinq

So it goes away if you apply more throttle?



Never really tried that. The vibration is strong enough to make me not want to increase engine/road speed when it occurs for fear of fragging something.

When it happens it shudders enough that my first reaction is to let up on the throttle, and then the problem immediately goes away. It almost always comes back again when throttle is reapplied a little, and seems to resolve itself within a minute or so. Until it happens again.
 
Originally Posted By: R80RS
Fluid looks normal, no darkening or burnt smell.
When I picked up my DD a year ago, it had the precursor to the infamous 4R70W torque converter clutch shudder. Just a little once in a while, but I'm very familiar with the feeling and I knew that's what it was. Fluid appeared pink and clean...did a couple of drain & fills with fresh Mercon V and problem gone.

Originally Posted By: R80RS
Originally Posted By: martinq
So it goes away if you apply more throttle?

Never really tried that. The vibration is strong enough to make me not want to increase engine/road speed when it occurs for fear of fragging something.
When it happens it shudders enough that my first reaction is to let up on the throttle, and then the problem immediately goes away.
Natural reaction, but try as martinq suggested. if it also goes away then you have the TCC shudder. The reason it goes way is that the TCC is disengaged on acceleration.

If it only gets worse, then you have a misfire.
 
A straightforward way of dealing with presumed TC shudder is changing ATF. If you DIY, one of the cheaper things to try. Friction modifiers can wear out. I have had rough shifting on Honda with fluid less than 19 thousand miles on it. Have had TC shudder solved by changing old licensed ATF 3+ with less than 20 thousand miles to new licensed ATF 3+ in a Chrysler which was made for 7176, an old type similar to ATF 2+ 3+ or 4+. This was before ATF 4+ existed.
 
Lubegard was once specifically mentioned by name in a Ford TSB. We had an old Tbird that was notorious for shudder just months after a fluid exchange.

A cup of Lubegard red cured it for years...
 
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