The NEW middle class

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: FXjohn
Universal Health Care in other first world countries works much better than our system.

Based on what?


$ spend per outcome maybe ?

Should be a measure of efficiency.

Say what's it cost to have a baby in each system, and how many of them survive to 1 year old.

That's pretty simplistic. How long does it take to get an appointment? Can you choose your own doctor? How many doctors are there to see? How many test machines are available in a given area?

The amount of time, the lost productivity, and the amount of pain and suffering endured by patients, in a que are never factored into the published "per country" costs.


Of course it's simplistic works...how much is spent, and what are the outcomes...you use it for schools, govt workers, every other thing that you set your mind to...how else do YOU measure efficiency ?

It's why I chose having a baby, the most natural thing that humans can do. 9 months to brew, waiting lists don't matter.

Who costs more to have this most natural of occurrences, and who is most likely to make it to their first birthday ?

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: DBMaster
but do you think that private insurers have your interests or theirs as top priority?

Why is that any different from a politician or bureaucrat? What makes you think they are motivated to help you?

Ultimately, insurance companies have to earn their money by servicing their clients, governments don't.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Of course it's simplistic works...how much is spent, and what are the outcomes...

What outcome? That the baby survived? How does the genetic and cultural difference in any given country or area affect this?

Even within the US, there is significant difference State by State:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_life_expectancy

Is a car "good" because it makes to 5 years? 10? 15? Is that the singular definition of "good"?

 

[FXjohn]

the only reason people are resorting to govt controlled healthcare is that the private system has let them down.

 

[DBMaster]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Ultimately, insurance companies have to earn their money by servicing their clients, governments don't.


I am not suggesting that I think government is a BETTER guiding force. But, I will say that insurance companies answer first to stockholders and boards of directors, not customers. They add significant cost to the system and rarely, if ever, offer excellent service to those who actually pay for their services.

To me, it all comes down to the question of whether health care is a RIGHT or a PRIVILEGE. If the USA decides it's a privilege we have nothing more to discuss, caveat emptor. If it is a right then each person should be entitled to equal access and quality of care. Some are calling it a right, but all I see is the markings of a privilege.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: FXjohn
Universal Health Care in other first world countries works much better than our system.

Based on what?


$ spend per outcome maybe ?

Should be a measure of efficiency.

Say what's it cost to have a baby in each system, and how many of them survive to 1 year old.

That's pretty simplistic. How long does it take to get an appointment? Can you choose your own doctor? How many doctors are there to see? How many test machines are available in a given area?

The amount of time, the lost productivity, and the amount of pain and suffering endured by patients, in a que are never factored into the published "per country" costs.


We chose our doctor and she lives about a block from me. Wonderful woman. We are two blocks away from the office, which is upstairs from an ultrasound/X-Ray clinic and turnaround on that stuff is immediate. As I stated earlier, for me and my family, the system has worked admirably. When I burned my finger with my ring and went to the hospital, I had about a 20 minute wait.

 

[FXjohn]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


We chose our doctor and she lives about a block from me. Wonderful woman. We are two blocks away from the office, which is upstairs from an ultrasound/X-Ray clinic and turnaround on that stuff is immediate. As I stated earlier, for me and my family, the system has worked admirably. When I burned my finger with my ring and went to the hospital, I had about a 20 minute wait.


funny how different reality is than the scare tactics that the fox news parrots spew

 

[buster]

Some people live in fantasy land, some of us live in the real world.

 

[mechanicx]

So if I'm following Tempest's reasoning right, his employer should cut his compensation and increase his work output, or better yet offshore his job to a 3rd world country

. That will lower cost, increase efficiency and competitiveness and create more jobs he's always claiming.

Isn't that bacially what he's always saying? Except he means do that with everyone else's job and profession not his I assume.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Tempest

There is no such thing as a "proper" amount of spending. There is plenty of waste in this country. 60% of medical spending is already done by the various governments. That's 10.2% of GDP...

Medicare had $48 billion in waste in 2011...out of a $516 billion budget...or nearly 10%. These are real life numbers. Why does anyone want the government running healthcare?


Remember I mentioned about LEVERAGE?

When there is no rule on how much you can charge for a life sustaining medication, and use insurance and bankruptcy to diversify the risk, there will be "not in my backyard" mentality when you price and demand the treatment / drug / etc.

The price of health care is not the same across the globe, and had nothing to do with the actual cost of the treatment anymore. At least with government sponsored health care you can bet they would refuse to budge toward another monopoly (i.e. insurance and drug company cartels).

If you have a better explanation on why the rest of the world can better pay for the same treatment at significantly lower cost, I'm all ear.

 

[buster]

Keep in mind folks, never in history has anything Tempest or any Libertarian actually existed. Not now, and not in the past. It's sounds great on paper but in the real world it falls apart.

It's a pipe dream. Keep sniffing that Libertarian Magic Dust.

Oh, and I love this one....Libetarians like to say "well we don't have true free markets."

That rebuttal is so weak. So basically the last 200 years everything has sucked to them. It's never good enough and the gov. never does any good. Grow up.

 

[mechanicx]

And aren't place that are closer to having it, mostly 3rd world and composed of the super rich and very poor?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Shannow

Of course it's simplistic works...how much is spent, and what are the outcomes...

What outcome? That the baby survived? How does the genetic and cultural difference in any given country or area affect this?

Even within the US, there is significant difference State by State:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_life_expectancy


Tempest, my simplistic measure is infant mortality, as every one of us by definition was born, and had a 9 month gestation period.

Can't get much more standardised than that.

The place with the highest cost of doing this most natural thing has a lower expectancy of reaching their first birthday that some places of lower cost...

After that you can start splitting hairs...which you seem to defend your system, by getting back to blaming individuals for the failing of the system.

 

[SteveSRT8]

as usual the reality is that the solution lies somewhere in between the highly polarized viewpoints presented here.

The Government does not control anything involving big money. Lobbyists work the halls of Congress representing those big moolah interests who have something they want done. By wining, dining, etc., they influence your Congressman to vote their way.

You and I as individuals have no say here, only large groups can get any attention at all, and much of it is through lobbying also. Reduced to the lowest common denominator it comes down to how deep their pockets are.

It's the people who imagine we have a fair and representative government who are the dreamers. This is no different than the people who insist "their" news channel is the truth. SEVERELY misinformed, the masses who rely on popular media for their news are part of the problem as they get a careful feeding based on what the special interests want them to see! It is a perversion of what the founding fathers of this country wanted. It needs to stop in order for the folks on the street to have any influence over the Govt.

Don't expect any changes soon...

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: DBMaster


I don't want to be dragged into this argument too far, but do you think that private insurers have your interests or theirs as top priority?


No, but if there is a marketplace of multiple private ensurers, I can pick and choose the best solution for me and my family. Or choose to not have insurance at all if that's my choice.

The choice not to ensure is already being taken away from folks. I suspect we are moving towards having fewer and fewer choices.

 

[FXjohn]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: DBMaster


I don't want to be dragged into this argument too far, but do you think that private insurers have your interests or theirs as top priority?


No, but if there is a marketplace of multiple private ensurers, I can pick and choose the best solution for me and my family. Or choose to not have insurance at all if that's my choice.

The choice not to ensure is already being taken away from folks. I suspect we are moving towards having fewer and fewer choices.


if the private insurers are really offering a value they have nothing to worry about.

 

[DBMaster]

It's much like compulsory auto and homeowner's insurance. Those who choose to go uninsured end up driving up the costs for all because sooner or later everyone needs medical care. The costs of care are staggering. When the uinsured don't pay their bills who do you think does?

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
No, but if there is a marketplace of multiple private ensurers, I can pick and choose the best solution for me and my family. Or choose to not have insurance at all if that's my choice.

The choice not to ensure is already being taken away from folks. I suspect we are moving towards having fewer and fewer choices.


First of all, as a large scale, it is not a choice of having or not having insurance. Numbers are telling us that people who don't have insurance are just asking someone else to pay for their dice rolling. Unless you sign a waiver to no treatment (i.e. just let you die) when you are in need, you have no right to say that you have the right to let someone else pay for you (via overhead to the ones who pay, through write offs in the medical systems).

I would like to choose having someone else pay for my expensive dice rolling and keep the savings too, but why would that be a choice in the first place as this only encourage irresponsible behaviors. Unless I see people dying left and right by refusing expensive medical services at their own will to save medical cost or insurance premium, I would not change my stance.

The only responsible alternative is high deductible plan, at say $10k deductible that is only used if you have cancer or require super expensive surgery. Anything else is just passing the bill to someone else IMO.