When to use an oil additive.

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It says in almost every engine or transmission manual DO NOT USE OIL ADDITIVES. The folks that wrote those comments know far more about the engine or box concerned than anyone reading this post.
There are a number of exceptions to the golden rule of not adding extra chemicals to a good quality engine or transmission oil and they are as follows:
1/ Maintenance procedures that require the use of a solvent to clean various engine parts, special pre assembly oils and anti corrosive sprays.
2/ Maintenance procedures relating to sludge prevention or minor cases of sludge, where a flush additive is used at idle only for 10 to 15 minutes just before an oil change. A number of dealers have approvals for such procedures, although I have not seen it mentioned in any maintenance manual, just in more local approvals.
3/ Type and product specific manufacturer approvals that relate to a specific design fault that requires an oil or fluid additive. These are very, very, rare and tend to relate to noise reduction in auto gearboxes or leaks. Some approvals were cancelled when new oils or fluids became available.
4/ Terminal phase engine or gearbox faults. When an engine is on its last legs and the bearings, rings and valve guides etc are failing the best course of action is to use a thicker multi grade race oil, like a 10/60, but if you also have serious oil leaks a high mileage oil containing seal conditioners should be tried. If you have a serious oil leak that is beyond economic repair, then it might be worth trying a can of stop leak rather than scrapping the engine. There are a few car or box manufacturer approved hydraulic fluid additives for specific failure issues, but they all require that the oil and screen filter be changed first and you need to follow the exact procedure listed in the approval.
5/ Experimental use. There are one or two new anti wear additives under test by major oil companies that might make a slight difference, but if you try one make sure you do a full UOA to see if the product is causing increased wear, as many do.
If you feel that you have to buy a can of additive get one from a major engine or hydraulic fluid company, as they have the facilities to test it fully and are far less likely to be selling a potentially damaging product.
Most folks that use additives would be far better off using a better quality or different viscosity range oil or an oil designed for their specific needs, like an HM oil, classic car or race oil.
Never forget, if in doubt, read the instructions not the advertising and that means the maintenance and users manuals in combination with any additional approvals.
 
Originally Posted By: skyship
It says in almost every engine or transmission manual DO NOT USE OIL ADDITIVES. The folks that wrote those comments know far more about the engine or box concerned than anyone reading this post.
There are a number of exceptions to the golden rule of not adding extra chemicals to a good quality engine or transmission oil and they are as follows:
1/ Maintenance procedures that require the use of a solvent to clean various engine parts, special pre assembly oils and anti corrosive sprays.
2/ Maintenance procedures relating to sludge prevention or minor cases of sludge, where a flush additive is used at idle only for 10 to 15 minutes just before an oil change. A number of dealers have approvals for such procedures, although I have not seen it mentioned in any maintenance manual, just in more local approvals.
3/ Type and product specific manufacturer approvals that relate to a specific design fault that requires an oil or fluid additive. These are very, very, rare and tend to relate to noise reduction in auto gearboxes or leaks. Some approvals were cancelled when new oils or fluids became available.
4/ Terminal phase engine or gearbox faults. When an engine is on its last legs and the bearings, rings and valve guides etc are failing the best course of action is to use a thicker multi grade race oil, like a 10/60, but if you also have serious oil leaks a high mileage oil containing seal conditioners should be tried. If you have a serious oil leak that is beyond economic repair, then it might be worth trying a can of stop leak rather than scrapping the engine. There are a few car or box manufacturer approved hydraulic fluid additives for specific failure issues, but they all require that the oil and screen filter be changed first and you need to follow the exact procedure listed in the approval.
5/ Experimental use. There are one or two new anti wear additives under test by major oil companies that might make a slight difference, but if you try one make sure you do a full UOA to see if the product is causing increased wear, as many do.
If you feel that you have to buy a can of additive get one from a major engine or hydraulic fluid company, as they have the facilities to test it fully and are far less likely to be selling a potentially damaging product.
Most folks that use additives would be far better off using a better quality or different viscosity range oil or an oil designed for their specific needs, like an HM oil, classic car or race oil.
Never forget, if in doubt, read the instructions not the advertising and that means the maintenance and users manuals in combination with any additional approvals.


Can I assume MMO does not fit into any of the above categories and should stay on the Walmart shelf?
 
Or do you think they haven't tested any of the additives so are not prepared to say anything else.

They also only say use up to B5 or B10 even though it is likely there will be no issue.

But if they said it is ok then they accept liability for whatever poorly made Bio that is out there.

Everything added to the basestocks is an additive.

Just because it is not put in there originally doesn't make it bad.

If there was no need for additives then there wouldn't be any.

There are certain additives that do work, can't remember the name but will try to find it of an additive that car traders use to fix sticky hydraulic tappets

They buy cars at auction with noisy tappets and buy it cheap as no private buyers want to risk it.

The traders take an educated gamble that the car will be fixed by adding this trade only additive, if they add it and it quietens the engine the they can then sell the car on for a nice profit.

If not, back into the auction it goes.

Companies like Molyslip have been around for years.

Lots of their products are in use in Industry.

Is Mos2 an additive that you say shouldn't be added to oil or to a gearbox?

So what is the difference between things like Mos2 and Moly which seems to be added to plenty of off the shelf oils?

I thought they were pretty similar.
 
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Or do you think they haven't tested any of the additives so are not prepared to say anything else.

They also only say use up to B5 or B10 even though it is likely there will be no issue.

But if they said it is ok then they accept liability for whatever poorly made Bio that is out there.

Everything added to the basestocks is an additive.

Just because it is not put in there originally doesn't make it bad.

If there was no need for additives then there wouldn't be any.

There are certain additives that do work, can't remember the name but will try to find it of an additive that car traders use to fix sticky hydraulic tappets

They buy cars at auction with noisy tappets and buy it cheap as no private buyers want to risk it.

The traders take an educated gamble that the car will be fixed by adding this trade only additive, if they add it and it quietens the engine the they can then sell the car on for a nice profit.

If not, back into the auction it goes.

Companies like Molyslip have been around for years.

Lots of their products are in use in Industry.

Is Mos2 an additive that you say shouldn't be added to oil or to a gearbox?

So what is the difference between things like Mos2 and Moly which seems to be added to plenty of off the shelf oils?

I thought they were pretty similar.



Oils have additive packages, meaning a combination of additives in specific proportions all tested to work together. I am not sure it would be wise to take one part of the additive package and to double or triple the PPM of it.
 
This really isn't about oil additives. It's about a life-style, a mind-set.

In general, people feel better about themselves and their safety, when other larger figures/agencies tell them that their way is the best and not to be questioned.

The real telling fact is: People who refuse to use additives get all bent out of shape towards people who do. But people who do use additives, don't give a second thought to those who don't. VERY TRUE.

My theory is: The people who don't use additives do so out of trust. But then they feel like they might be missing something....and get defensive and start threads like skyship....and if they keep on with this anti-additive mindset, they don't ever have to get off their duff, investigate, become educated, or try something new. They continue to believe that everyone who wants their money has their best interest at heart and when fear arises and they begin to question their belief system, they can continue their defensive attitudes and attack others.

It's the same reason why people who don't have tattoo's make inconsiderate comments to those that have them....but people who do have tattoo's don't say anything or cop an attitude towards those that don't have tattoo's.

There are two forces in this world that make people look really silly: Fear and Ignorance.

And there is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
 
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You forgot to mention this is just your opinion and nothing to do with fact.
Your first problem is you are taking a legal disclaimer and are attempting to employ it as a maintenance memo.
 
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Originally Posted By: Trav
You forgot to mention this is just your opinion and nothing to do with fact.


Of course, it's my opinion. But I think this isn't about additives. It's more about belief systems.

I'd wager that if we took a poll, those who regularly use oil additives vs. those who would never touch the stuff in regards to their political affiliation......you'd see how a majority of the additives users would be affiliated with one political party, and those against additives with the other.

Because if additives were that bad or impossibly good, everyone would swing one way. But that's not the case.

I bet there are more people with permits to carry a concealed handgun that use additives than those violently against them. I bet a majority of additive users are Republicans.

I bet you're more likely to file to lawsuit or are against saying prayers in school if you don't use additives.

Of course, I'm just guessing, and having a little fun with the anti-additive people. But I think I'm onto something....and besides, people who refuse to open their minds and think for themselves don't usually inspire me.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
You forgot to mention this is just your opinion and nothing to do with fact.
Your first problem is you are taking a legal disclaimer and are attempting to employ it as a maintenance memo.


I believe Trav was directing that toward the OP.

A couple of good posts though Phishin!
thumbsup2.gif
 
Yeah I'd like to know that too because I've heard a lot of good things about MMO. However, I have found that if you use a good enough quality oil and change it often enough along with all the other things that need to be maintanenced on a car then you won't end up needing additives ?¿?¿
 
Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Or do you think they haven't tested any of the additives so are not prepared to say anything else.

They also only say use up to B5 or B10 even though it is likely there will be no issue.

But if they said it is ok then they accept liability for whatever poorly made Bio that is out there.

Everything added to the basestocks is an additive.

Just because it is not put in there originally doesn't make it bad.

If there was no need for additives then there wouldn't be any.

There are certain additives that do work, can't remember the name but will try to find it of an additive that car traders use to fix sticky hydraulic tappets

They buy cars at auction with noisy tappets and buy it cheap as no private buyers want to risk it.

The traders take an educated gamble that the car will be fixed by adding this trade only additive, if they add it and it quietens the engine the they can then sell the car on for a nice profit.

If not, back into the auction it goes.

Companies like Molyslip have been around for years.

Lots of their products are in use in Industry.

Is Mos2 an additive that you say shouldn't be added to oil or to a gearbox?

So what is the difference between things like Mos2 and Moly which seems to be added to plenty of off the shelf oils?

I thought they were pretty similar.



Oils have additive packages, meaning a combination of additives in specific proportions all tested to work together. I am not sure it would be wise to take one part of the additive package and to double or triple the PPM of it.


Some sense at last! All additives have unwanted side effects and if you use too much what you get is not an improvement but worse UOA results if you add them to a good oil.
 
Originally Posted By: jrtribology
Yeah I'd like to know that too because I've heard a lot of good things about MMO. However, I have found that if you use a good enough quality oil and change it often enough along with all the other things that need to be maintanenced on a car then you won't end up needing additives ?¿?¿


I agree, if you want better lubrication, buy better oil. If you use a top shelf oil like the Amsoil signature series or PU (and others) and a top shelf filter and change on reasonable intervals based upon UOA, you have pretty much done as much as you can with respect to lubrication. No additive will make things better.

Driving habits like jack rabbit starts can't help.

Other factors not really controllable include location (Alaska or Death Valley) and city vs rural, easy 30 minute commute on a highway or an hour of stop & go or 2 minute commute.
 
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Originally Posted By: Phishin


The real telling fact is: People who refuse to use additives get all bent out of shape towards people who do. But people who do use additives, don't give a second thought to those who don't. VERY TRUE.



Another real telling fact is how those who use them get all bent out of shape towards people who don't take what they say as gospel. Gospel based on nothing more than "It works because I say so. So you're not allowed to question it."
 
Originally Posted By: Phishin
Originally Posted By: Trav
You forgot to mention this is just your opinion and nothing to do with fact.


Of course, it's my opinion. But I think this isn't about additives. It's more about belief systems.

I'd wager that if we took a poll, those who regularly use oil additives vs. those who would never touch the stuff in regards to their political affiliation......you'd see how a majority of the additives users would be affiliated with one political party, and those against additives with the other.

Because if additives were that bad or impossibly good, everyone would swing one way. But that's not the case.

I bet there are more people with permits to carry a concealed handgun that use additives than those violently against them. I bet a majority of additive users are Republicans.

I bet you're more likely to file to lawsuit or are against saying prayers in school if you don't use additives.

Of course, I'm just guessing, and having a little fun with the anti-additive people. But I think I'm onto something....and besides, people who refuse to open their minds and think for themselves don't usually inspire me.


With good advertising a snake oil company could sell water as an additive to some folks! My local company is Liqui Moly who are the no 1 engine oil manufacturer in Germany, just ahead of Castrol. They have stopped using Moly in their more expensive full synthetics because better anti wear additives are available and it caused corrosion in some engine blocks. Very few German engineers use their additives apart from the maintenance related products and they are made for export to make money from less well educated users, or folks that can not buy a major brand oil and only have a cheap bulk oil available that has almost no add pack included. I should have mentioned in my post that folks in 3rd world countries with serious import taxes find it difficult to obtain good engine oil and some of them just use a local cheap brand and then import additives to try and improve it.
 
Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: jrtribology
Yeah I'd like to know that too because I've heard a lot of good things about MMO. However, I have found that if you use a good enough quality oil and change it often enough along with all the other things that need to be maintanenced on a car then you won't end up needing additives ?¿?¿


I agree, if you want better lubrication, buy better oil. If you use a top shelf oil like the Amsoil signature series or PU (and others) and a top shelf filter and change on reasonable intervals based upon UOA, you have pretty much done as much as you can with respect to lubrication. No additive will make things better.

Driving habits like jack rabbit starts can't help.

Other factors not really controllable include location (Alaska or Death Valley) and city vs rural, easy 30 minute commute on a highway or an hour of stop & go or 2 minute commute.


Very true, but I have seen a lot of UOA results that show worse results after using an additive.
 
Originally Posted By: skyship

Very true, but I have seen a lot of UOA results that show worse results after using an additive.


Really? I'd like to see those, do you have some links to the UOA posts?

Of course we'll need some corresponding UOA's with the same engines and oils with no additives so we can see the "worse results". Shouldn't be a problem though since you've seen a lot of them...
 
Originally Posted By: Phishin
Originally Posted By: Trav
You forgot to mention this is just your opinion and nothing to do with fact.


Of course, it's my opinion. But I think this isn't about additives. It's more about belief systems.

I'd wager that if we took a poll, those who regularly use oil additives vs. those who would never touch the stuff in regards to their political affiliation......you'd see how a majority of the additives users would be affiliated with one political party, and those against additives with the other.

Because if additives were that bad or impossibly good, everyone would swing one way. But that's not the case.

I bet there are more people with permits to carry a concealed handgun that use additives than those violently against them. I bet a majority of additive users are Republicans.

I bet you're more likely to file to lawsuit or are against saying prayers in school if you don't use additives.

Of course, I'm just guessing, and having a little fun with the anti-additive people. But I think I'm onto something....and besides, people who refuse to open their minds and think for themselves don't usually inspire me.


My Volvo diesel is subject to serious driver abuse and horrific stop start useage, I really like our car and so did a lot of research into how to maintain it, which oil and filter to use and if there was any point trying a high tech additive like Ceretec or one of the nano particle additives. I wasted money doing an idle only flush (No sludge), discovered the real Volvo oil filter was slightly better and any major brand conventional or synthetic 5/40 changed at the severe service quoted 10K OCI does a good job. Every oil additive made things worse in the UOA results I have seen except Ceretec, BUT even that was such a minor temporary improvement as to not be worth the money and there is no long term study showing a significant change in engine life. If I was to spend more money on trying to improve the life expectancy of my cars main block I would fit a sump heater, as they really do help reduce the wear metal figures in winter.
 
Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: skyship
It says in almost every engine or transmission manual DO NOT USE OIL ADDITIVES. The folks that wrote those comments know far more about the engine or box concerned than anyone reading this post.
There are a number of exceptions to the golden rule of not adding extra chemicals to a good quality engine or transmission oil and they are as follows:
1/ Maintenance procedures that require the use of a solvent to clean various engine parts, special pre assembly oils and anti corrosive sprays.
2/ Maintenance procedures relating to sludge prevention or minor cases of sludge, where a flush additive is used at idle only for 10 to 15 minutes just before an oil change. A number of dealers have approvals for such procedures, although I have not seen it mentioned in any maintenance manual, just in more local approvals.
3/ Type and product specific manufacturer approvals that relate to a specific design fault that requires an oil or fluid additive. These are very, very, rare and tend to relate to noise reduction in auto gearboxes or leaks. Some approvals were cancelled when new oils or fluids became available.
4/ Terminal phase engine or gearbox faults. When an engine is on its last legs and the bearings, rings and valve guides etc are failing the best course of action is to use a thicker multi grade race oil, like a 10/60, but if you also have serious oil leaks a high mileage oil containing seal conditioners should be tried. If you have a serious oil leak that is beyond economic repair, then it might be worth trying a can of stop leak rather than scrapping the engine. There are a few car or box manufacturer approved hydraulic fluid additives for specific failure issues, but they all require that the oil and screen filter be changed first and you need to follow the exact procedure listed in the approval.
5/ Experimental use. There are one or two new anti wear additives under test by major oil companies that might make a slight difference, but if you try one make sure you do a full UOA to see if the product is causing increased wear, as many do.
If you feel that you have to buy a can of additive get one from a major engine or hydraulic fluid company, as they have the facilities to test it fully and are far less likely to be selling a potentially damaging product.
Most folks that use additives would be far better off using a better quality or different viscosity range oil or an oil designed for their specific needs, like an HM oil, classic car or race oil.
Never forget, if in doubt, read the instructions not the advertising and that means the maintenance and users manuals in combination with any additional approvals.


Can I assume MMO does not fit into any of the above categories and should stay on the Walmart shelf?


You can use a bottle of alcohol or acetone for cleaning metal parts as it will evapourate off. Both are cheaper than MMO, but do read the manuals as some components like rings should be coated with a final assembly lubricant and the instructions for the lubricant will list any concerns over how the parts were cleaned.
If it lists MMO in your engine manual as a good way to prevent or cure sludge then it might be worth buying. I think there are two vintage John Deere tractor engines that list it, but I can't find the approvals at present, so they are out of date.
 
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Who do you think your dealing with here a bunch of ladies that you write little maintenance manuals for their Volvo's ?
Just what are you qualifications to dispense anything more than your opinion like almost everyone else on this forum? Just what makes you think you know more than anyone else?
Your ability to read? Some sort of uncanny ability to comprehend more than everyone else?
I want to know just what makes your opinion any more valid than mine, demarpaints, overkills, or anyone else on this board.

You come here and start telling other they are doing wrong like its some sort of edict from on high.
It is just your opinion and nothing more, depending on your record will determine how much value is placed on that opinion. So far your 00.

Are you a tribologist? A member of SAE? A lubrication engineer perhaps? Do you work for an oil company in R&D?
Not a slam but fair questions don't you think?

You don't like additives and thats fine but there is a place for them if needed.
Your ideal world where everyone uses a high grade oil and changes it on time may and sometimes does not work in theory but it doesn't work in practice.
Used car buyers often times buy the result of someone else's neglect and are faced with a variety of issues that may well be helped with the use of an additive.

Subaru uses cooling system additives made by Holts, GM uses lubeguard and makes their own oil additive as well as repackaged BarsLeak Gold, Many manufacturers uses their own additives. Why?
Just like i said, there are circumstances that may warrant their use.

You talk about snake oils but push liqui Moly product like they are gods gift.
I have used their products on and off for 40 years in Germany working in the business and found many are marginal at best including their flushes.
Some work fine but others definitely fall into the snake oil category like their MotorProtect.

For the most part only their Werkstatt Linie is of any value, the consumer grade stuff is just watered down garage versions with the exception of their MoS2.
LM is far from being the be all and end all as you claim in most of your postings. I would even go as far as saying the vast majority of their consumer grade stuff could be considered "snake oil".
 
Originally Posted By: skyship


My local company is Liqui Moly who are the no 1 engine oil manufacturer in Germany, just ahead of Castrol. They have stopped using Moly in their more expensive full synthetics because better anti wear additives are available and it caused corrosion in some engine blocks. Very few German engineers use their additives apart from the maintenance related products and they are made for export to make money from less well educated users, or folks that can not buy a major brand oil and only have a cheap bulk oil available that has almost no add pack included. I should have mentioned in my post that folks in 3rd world countries with serious import taxes find it difficult to obtain good engine oil and some of them just use a local cheap brand and then import additives to try and improve it.


Thanks for the honest comment, I am just still figuring out why my PU Euro L 5w-30 does not respond well on the last engine (that use Ceratec+M1 EP before the change) compared with the previous engine. So I am just wondering if LiquiMoly products that still use Moly is probably inferior outdated product with no good base oil/addpack ?
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Who do you think your dealing with here a bunch of ladies that you write little maintenance manuals for their Volvo's ?
Just what are you qualifications to dispense anything more than your opinion like almost everyone else on this forum? Just what makes you think you know more than anyone else?
Your ability to read? Some sort of uncanny ability to comprehend more than everyone else?
I want to know just what makes your opinion any more valid than mine, demarpaints, overkills, or anyone else on this board.

You come here and start telling other they are doing wrong like its some sort of edict from on high.
It is just your opinion and nothing more, depending on your record will determine how much value is placed on that opinion. So far your 00.

Are you a tribologist? A member of SAE? A lubrication engineer perhaps? Do you work for an oil company in R&D?
Not a slam but fair questions don't you think?

You don't like additives and thats fine but there is a place for them if needed.
Your ideal world where everyone uses a high grade oil and changes it on time may and sometimes does not work in theory but it doesn't work in practice.
Used car buyers often times buy the result of someone else's neglect and are faced with a variety of issues that may well be helped with the use of an additive.

Subaru uses cooling system additives made by Holts, GM uses lubeguard and makes their own oil additive as well as repackaged BarsLeak Gold, Many manufacturers uses their own additives. Why?
Just like i said, there are circumstances that may warrant their use.

You talk about snake oils but push liqui Moly product like they are gods gift.
I have used their products on and off for 40 years in Germany working in the business and found many are marginal at best including their flushes.
Some work fine but others definitely fall into the snake oil category like their MotorProtect.

For the most part only their Werkstatt Linie is of any value, the consumer grade stuff is just watered down garage versions with the exception of their MoS2.
LM is far from being the be all and end all as you claim in most of your postings. I would even go as far as saying the vast majority of their consumer grade stuff could be considered "snake oil".


Anything anyone writes is an opinion, I'm just used to writing in a blunt manner because I get to talk with fools that have damaged engines on a regular basis when I am working.
You didn't read my post as it was not about coolant or fuel additives, only about oil or gearbox additives. Where in the post have I recommended Liqui Moly??
I did mention that some manufacturers do have approved oil additives, so why are you repeating that?
If you buy a car with problems READ THE MANUAL not the advertising and look for a good oil, as you might need an HM oil etc. You might even need to use an at idle only flush and they are listed as maintenance procedures so don't count as snake oils. Amsoil are very anti additive, but sell an idle only pre OC flush as a maintenance product.
I have been very specific in pointing out that I use LM oils because they are cheaper than Castrol and Mobil in Germany and I did think that some of the posters were female or cross dressers, as it's hard to tell in virtual world. Oddly enough it's very difficult to sell snake oil to women as they read the owners manual more often than the average male, who tends to read the advertising in car magazines insted.
 
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