Agreed Bill.
Which 4 cyl engines have timing chain?
- Thread starter otis24
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I would also take a Chain, it will easily last 300K miles in a 4 cyl engine.
The last timing belt/water pump on our 1998 Civic was $400 and it included all the parts, belts, gaskets, labor and a free Honda Accord loaner for the day. I wish I could have saved that $400
The last timing belt/water pump on our 1998 Civic was $400 and it included all the parts, belts, gaskets, labor and a free Honda Accord loaner for the day. I wish I could have saved that $400
Any Focus with the Duratec 4cyl is a chain. All the Mazda 3's are chains. The new fiesta is a chain iirc. The Mazda 6 and fusion 4cyl models are a chain.
All current Nissan 4cyl. engines have timing chains.
ls1mike
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Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Don't be locked into the idea that a chain is better.
When it comes time to replace one, they are certainly more costly and troublesome.
But in real life with correct oil changes and adult operated how often are you seeing chains needing to be replaced in a well designed engine?
Compared to every 90-110k that MUST be done with an belt. So far if I had a belt in my Corolla I'd already done TWO belt changes. With the chain none.
I'd rather take a chain. Done the belt a few times and while they are easier, they do cost more (overall) in my experience.
Bill
There it is right there. My truck has 194,000 miles over half of that towing and I am on the the original Chain.
Infact a couple of my previous chain vehicles had well over 250,000 miles on the chain.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Don't be locked into the idea that a chain is better.
When it comes time to replace one, they are certainly more costly and troublesome.
But in real life with correct oil changes and adult operated how often are you seeing chains needing to be replaced in a well designed engine?
Compared to every 90-110k that MUST be done with an belt. So far if I had a belt in my Corolla I'd already done TWO belt changes. With the chain none.
I'd rather take a chain. Done the belt a few times and while they are easier, they do cost more (overall) in my experience.
Bill
There it is right there. My truck has 194,000 miles over half of that towing and I am on the the original Chain.
Infact a couple of my previous chain vehicles had well over 250,000 miles on the chain.
The question isn't which engines have chians, the question is really which DON'T, or which have belts.
Originally Posted By: Nick R
The question isn't which engines have chians, the question is really which DON'T, or which have belts.
Huh?
Let's review.
Subject header:
Which 4 cyl engines have timing chain? (asking which ones HAVE a CHAIN...)
First post with the question;
Originally Posted By: otis24
I may be in the market for a small fuel efficient car if I get the new job that I have applied for. The drive is approximately 70-75 miles one way. I had thought about an Aveo, but I would like to purchase something with a timing chain as opposed to a timing belt. Which compact cars (prefer domestic but am open) come with a timing chain?
(highlighted red for the question) OP is asking "Which compact cars COME WITH A TIMING CHAIN?"
Confused......
The question isn't which engines have chians, the question is really which DON'T, or which have belts.
Huh?
Let's review.
Subject header:
Which 4 cyl engines have timing chain? (asking which ones HAVE a CHAIN...)
First post with the question;
Originally Posted By: otis24
I may be in the market for a small fuel efficient car if I get the new job that I have applied for. The drive is approximately 70-75 miles one way. I had thought about an Aveo, but I would like to purchase something with a timing chain as opposed to a timing belt. Which compact cars (prefer domestic but am open) come with a timing chain?
(highlighted red for the question) OP is asking "Which compact cars COME WITH A TIMING CHAIN?"
Confused......
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: Nick R
The question isn't which engines have chians, the question is really which DON'T, or which have belts.
Huh?
Let's review.
Subject header:
Which 4 cyl engines have timing chain? (asking which ones HAVE a CHAIN...)
First post with the question;
Originally Posted By: otis24
I may be in the market for a small fuel efficient car if I get the new job that I have applied for. The drive is approximately 70-75 miles one way. I had thought about an Aveo, but I would like to purchase something with a timing chain as opposed to a timing belt. Which compact cars (prefer domestic but am open) come with a timing chain?
(highlighted red for the question) OP is asking "Which compact cars COME WITH A TIMING CHAIN?"
Confused......
LOL
Bill. What i mean is that by far the majority of cars come with timing chains. Therefor a more appropriate question would be "which cars have timing belts". It's kind of a joke... Ahhh, never mind.
Originally Posted By: Nick R
The question isn't which engines have chians, the question is really which DON'T, or which have belts.
Huh?
Let's review.
Subject header:
Which 4 cyl engines have timing chain? (asking which ones HAVE a CHAIN...)
First post with the question;
Originally Posted By: otis24
I may be in the market for a small fuel efficient car if I get the new job that I have applied for. The drive is approximately 70-75 miles one way. I had thought about an Aveo, but I would like to purchase something with a timing chain as opposed to a timing belt. Which compact cars (prefer domestic but am open) come with a timing chain?
(highlighted red for the question) OP is asking "Which compact cars COME WITH A TIMING CHAIN?"
Confused......
LOL
Bill. What i mean is that by far the majority of cars come with timing chains. Therefor a more appropriate question would be "which cars have timing belts". It's kind of a joke... Ahhh, never mind.
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The thing is, I remember when almost all cars had timing chains.
Replacing them was a bread and butter regular job. Even if they worked, then were often loose and caused other problems like erratic timing. Even with no distributors today, the cam will swing around and affect the cam sensor reading.
Belts are well suited to modern light OHC sysems.
A double row timing chain is much better for pushrod heavy sprung engines.
As a side note, I believe timing chain systems [with guides and tensioners] to be more complicated , and will shear oil with vigor.
Replacing them was a bread and butter regular job. Even if they worked, then were often loose and caused other problems like erratic timing. Even with no distributors today, the cam will swing around and affect the cam sensor reading.
Belts are well suited to modern light OHC sysems.
A double row timing chain is much better for pushrod heavy sprung engines.
As a side note, I believe timing chain systems [with guides and tensioners] to be more complicated , and will shear oil with vigor.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Don't be locked into the idea that a chain is better.
When it comes time to replace one, they are certainly more costly and troublesome.
But in real life with correct oil changes and adult operated how often are you seeing chains needing to be replaced in a well designed engine?
Compared to every 90-110k that MUST be done with an belt. So far if I had a belt in my Corolla I'd already done TWO belt changes. With the chain none.
I'd rather take a chain. Done the belt a few times and while they are easier, they do cost more (overall) in my experience.
Bill
Chains wear out. A 150k mile old engine with a new belt is going to be running quieter than an engine with a 150k mile chain.
Chains are an issue with a number of engines. A lot of them won't make 200k. A number of Nissan engines-- 3.5L and 4.0L V6s, have chain issues which require tensioner replacements before 100k. Same with VW VR6 engines and their chain issues. And early GM 2.2L Ecotec and 3.6L V6 engines. So there are quite a few common applications where the timing chain will become an issue and it tends to be VERY expensive to replace.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Don't be locked into the idea that a chain is better.
When it comes time to replace one, they are certainly more costly and troublesome.
But in real life with correct oil changes and adult operated how often are you seeing chains needing to be replaced in a well designed engine?
Compared to every 90-110k that MUST be done with an belt. So far if I had a belt in my Corolla I'd already done TWO belt changes. With the chain none.
I'd rather take a chain. Done the belt a few times and while they are easier, they do cost more (overall) in my experience.
Bill
Chains wear out. A 150k mile old engine with a new belt is going to be running quieter than an engine with a 150k mile chain.
Chains are an issue with a number of engines. A lot of them won't make 200k. A number of Nissan engines-- 3.5L and 4.0L V6s, have chain issues which require tensioner replacements before 100k. Same with VW VR6 engines and their chain issues. And early GM 2.2L Ecotec and 3.6L V6 engines. So there are quite a few common applications where the timing chain will become an issue and it tends to be VERY expensive to replace.
Well, my hot rod has no timing chain at all.
Gear drive. And it's really quiet, too. I bet they take a long time to wear down.
Personally it's a [censored] shoot. I've driven belted vehicles WAY past the change interval specified with no issues at all.
And chains are far more expensive to mess with. All this funky cam moving hardware has got to do something bad to TC's over the long haul.
Gear drive. And it's really quiet, too. I bet they take a long time to wear down.
Personally it's a [censored] shoot. I've driven belted vehicles WAY past the change interval specified with no issues at all.
And chains are far more expensive to mess with. All this funky cam moving hardware has got to do something bad to TC's over the long haul.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Chains seem a little more common now than the late 90s. Belts are about a 105k service item now; you may save more money getting a car with a belt and reasonable 14-15 inch tires compared to blingy 18s for example.
I think this might be a better criteria for choosing a car. You will go through tires, having a car that requires less expensive tires is IMO, a larger plus than having a timing chain. Since you will be putting on lots of miles, fuel economy and oil change interval would, I think, also be a larger factor than the timing chain/belt.
Clark
Chains seem a little more common now than the late 90s. Belts are about a 105k service item now; you may save more money getting a car with a belt and reasonable 14-15 inch tires compared to blingy 18s for example.
I think this might be a better criteria for choosing a car. You will go through tires, having a car that requires less expensive tires is IMO, a larger plus than having a timing chain. Since you will be putting on lots of miles, fuel economy and oil change interval would, I think, also be a larger factor than the timing chain/belt.
Clark
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Don't be locked into the idea that a chain is better.
When it comes time to replace one, they are certainly more costly and troublesome.
But in real life with correct oil changes and adult operated how often are you seeing chains needing to be replaced in a well designed engine?
Compared to every 90-110k that MUST be done with an belt. So far if I had a belt in my Corolla I'd already done TWO belt changes. With the chain none.
I'd rather take a chain. Done the belt a few times and while they are easier, they do cost more (overall) in my experience.
Bill
I fully agree. I have never replaced a timing chain. My last car was a 96 Merc GM with 218K and the engine was still very quite when I sold it. The 4.6 V8 had long chains, but never heard any chain noise or timing problems from chain streach.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Don't be locked into the idea that a chain is better.
When it comes time to replace one, they are certainly more costly and troublesome.
But in real life with correct oil changes and adult operated how often are you seeing chains needing to be replaced in a well designed engine?
Compared to every 90-110k that MUST be done with an belt. So far if I had a belt in my Corolla I'd already done TWO belt changes. With the chain none.
I'd rather take a chain. Done the belt a few times and while they are easier, they do cost more (overall) in my experience.
Bill
I fully agree. I have never replaced a timing chain. My last car was a 96 Merc GM with 218K and the engine was still very quite when I sold it. The 4.6 V8 had long chains, but never heard any chain noise or timing problems from chain streach.
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I generally prefer timing chains as well, but you have to be careful with assuming that ANY chain drive system is more reliable than ANY belt drive system. There are some pretty poor/noisy chain drives out there. On the other hand, there are some fantastic chain drives as well.
I used to be of the mindset to avoid anything with a timing belt, by definition. Now I see myself about to purchase a vehicle with a timing belt. As it sits, I'd be 50k miles away from the timing belt change interval on this vehicle, and a DIY replacement costs about $350 and 5 hours. I can live with that.
I used to be of the mindset to avoid anything with a timing belt, by definition. Now I see myself about to purchase a vehicle with a timing belt. As it sits, I'd be 50k miles away from the timing belt change interval on this vehicle, and a DIY replacement costs about $350 and 5 hours. I can live with that.
My Nissan 2.4 has double-row chains and has been noisy since I got it at 75k miles. Its pushing over 200k now and its just as noisy, but still going strong. I have heard of people proactively replacing them, but never actually heard of one breaking.
My dads 1997 Corolla with the 1.6l has the original belt on it still, and the odo currently sits at 298,000 miles. Thats got to be a record. (Its getting replaced this weekend when I replace the cracked radiator.)
I replaced the belt in my 4.7l Sequoia and at 96k miles it still looked brand new. The bearings in the tensioner however, were very worn and it had a lot of play in it.
My dads 1997 Corolla with the 1.6l has the original belt on it still, and the odo currently sits at 298,000 miles. Thats got to be a record. (Its getting replaced this weekend when I replace the cracked radiator.)
I replaced the belt in my 4.7l Sequoia and at 96k miles it still looked brand new. The bearings in the tensioner however, were very worn and it had a lot of play in it.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I generally prefer timing chains as well, but you have to be careful with assuming that ANY chain drive system is more reliable than ANY belt drive system. There are some pretty poor/noisy chain drives out there. On the other hand, there are some fantastic chain drives as well.
I used to be of the mindset to avoid anything with a timing belt, by definition. Now I see myself about to purchase a vehicle with a timing belt. As it sits, I'd be 50k miles away from the timing belt change interval on this vehicle, and a DIY replacement costs about $350 and 5 hours. I can live with that.
+1 Early 2000's V6 Trackers and Vitara's had timing chain issues, it seems the tensioner would stick and the chain would get looser and beat the guides to death before failing... I think its because the tensioner doesn't move potentially for years at time, so [censored] oil run to long could have build up and make it stick and not add tension as the chain wears, accelerating wear.
Its not unheard of for the 4 cylinder to have timing chain issues as well, and the water pump is chain driven... I run HDEO's for their detergents and hope for the best.
I generally prefer timing chains as well, but you have to be careful with assuming that ANY chain drive system is more reliable than ANY belt drive system. There are some pretty poor/noisy chain drives out there. On the other hand, there are some fantastic chain drives as well.
I used to be of the mindset to avoid anything with a timing belt, by definition. Now I see myself about to purchase a vehicle with a timing belt. As it sits, I'd be 50k miles away from the timing belt change interval on this vehicle, and a DIY replacement costs about $350 and 5 hours. I can live with that.
+1 Early 2000's V6 Trackers and Vitara's had timing chain issues, it seems the tensioner would stick and the chain would get looser and beat the guides to death before failing... I think its because the tensioner doesn't move potentially for years at time, so [censored] oil run to long could have build up and make it stick and not add tension as the chain wears, accelerating wear.
Its not unheard of for the 4 cylinder to have timing chain issues as well, and the water pump is chain driven... I run HDEO's for their detergents and hope for the best.
The Nissan KA engines would lose the chain guides and tensioners, and the chain would slacken up and beat against the front of the engine (behind the timing cover) and wear it away enough for a coolant jacket to start leaking into the timing chain area (and put coolant into the oil).
Certainly not all timing chain systems are designed "well". Nissan's timing chains seem particularly noisy or problem-prone after a while, for whatever reason. On the other hand, the Cadillac Northstar engine, for example, has an excellent timing chain system. I don't think I've heard of a single failure of a Northstar timing chain system.
It's actually got THREE timing chains, to keep the runs short. There's an intermediate chain between the crankshaft and an idler sprocket just above (where the camshaft sprocket would be for a cam-in-block engine), then one chain for the right cylinder bank and one chain for the left cylinder bank. It was a great system.
Certainly not all timing chain systems are designed "well". Nissan's timing chains seem particularly noisy or problem-prone after a while, for whatever reason. On the other hand, the Cadillac Northstar engine, for example, has an excellent timing chain system. I don't think I've heard of a single failure of a Northstar timing chain system.
It's actually got THREE timing chains, to keep the runs short. There's an intermediate chain between the crankshaft and an idler sprocket just above (where the camshaft sprocket would be for a cam-in-block engine), then one chain for the right cylinder bank and one chain for the left cylinder bank. It was a great system.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
The Nissan KA engines would lose the chain guides and tensioners, and the chain would slacken up and beat against the front of the engine (behind the timing cover) and wear it away enough for a coolant jacket to start leaking into the timing chain area (and put coolant into the oil).
Correct, been there, done that! However this was only an issue with the single cam engines. The the later dual cam versions didnt suffer this problem. (Or should I say, if they do, I havent heard of it.) I inspected my (DOHC) block a few months ago and I saw no evidence of rubbing anywhere. I have seen it on a SOHC though, and the catastrophic results that follow.
On the dual cam engines, Nissan had a TSB to remove the top and side chain guides from the upper chain. I removed both and it definitely quieted things down, but you can still hear some rattle at idle.
The Nissan KA engines would lose the chain guides and tensioners, and the chain would slacken up and beat against the front of the engine (behind the timing cover) and wear it away enough for a coolant jacket to start leaking into the timing chain area (and put coolant into the oil).
Correct, been there, done that! However this was only an issue with the single cam engines. The the later dual cam versions didnt suffer this problem. (Or should I say, if they do, I havent heard of it.) I inspected my (DOHC) block a few months ago and I saw no evidence of rubbing anywhere. I have seen it on a SOHC though, and the catastrophic results that follow.
On the dual cam engines, Nissan had a TSB to remove the top and side chain guides from the upper chain. I removed both and it definitely quieted things down, but you can still hear some rattle at idle.
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