What is added to the oil to have it be considered a high mileage oil?
What exactly is the difference between a "high mileage" oil and regular oil?
- Thread starter HardCharger
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Seal conditioning agents ..and they usually sit higher on the viscosity scale ..even within a grade. I don't think that you'll ever see a 5w20 high mileage oil ..at least not until 0w-10 is recommended for all North American automobiles (perhaps SX ..or SZ?).
[ July 01, 2005, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
[ July 01, 2005, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
So what are these "seal conditioning agents"? Are they esters?
Valvoline Maxlife dino is supposed to have 15%PAO SYN, though not marketed as SynBlend.
Their MaxLifeSyn must be good stuff. It meets multiple ACEA specs, and longlife specs from VW, MB, and BMW, and GF-4.
I have used both. I like them.
Most claim to have conditioning agents like GA said.
Their MaxLifeSyn must be good stuff. It meets multiple ACEA specs, and longlife specs from VW, MB, and BMW, and GF-4.
I have used both. I like them.
Most claim to have conditioning agents like GA said.
I believe the HM oils also will have more detergent. But what I see as the major difference is the HM oils typically are not crammed into the CAFE mold. Most HM oils do not sport the API starburst logo, nor the words "Energy Conserving."
It's gotta be more than PAO or esters that condition the seals: I switched to MaxLife and all my leaks are drying up after a 215,000-mile diet of Mobil 1, Amsoil, or Redline (mostly Mobil 1). If PAOs or esters were such great seal conditioners, I wouldn't have switched in the first place.
PAOs do NOT condition elastomeric seals at all. The lack of polycyclic aromatics* in PAO-based full synthetics is the reason seal shrinkage and resulting oil leakage take place. Mobil was first to solve that problem by adding contolled amounts of esters to PAO-based full-synthetic motor oils to counter the seal-shrinkage issue. The esters used are a two-fold solution - they swell elastomeric seals and are a good, stable lube in themselves.
*PCAs are abundant in Group I base oils - often in double digit percentages. Their only saving grace is their tendency to swell elastomeric seals, otherwise they're less than worthless due to their tendency to oxidize or otherwise react into unstable compounds.
*PCAs are abundant in Group I base oils - often in double digit percentages. Their only saving grace is their tendency to swell elastomeric seals, otherwise they're less than worthless due to their tendency to oxidize or otherwise react into unstable compounds.
MolaKule
Staff member
I believe the high mileage and LL oils have a slightly higher viscosity, slightly more seal-swell additive, and a small increase in detergency/dispersancy. Otherwise, they are simply market niches carved out by Valvoline starting with their Maxlife.
See this thread on Seal Swell Additives:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000022
BTW, the run-of-the-mill seal swell additives are PCA's that come from the bottom parts of the cracking/distillation unit just above the asphalts.
See this thread on Seal Swell Additives:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000022
BTW, the run-of-the-mill seal swell additives are PCA's that come from the bottom parts of the cracking/distillation unit just above the asphalts.
Definitely a marketing niche and a good one for sales, unlike Castrol's attempt at a market niche with "Start Up". That said, there is no reason there can't be real benefits apart from those promoted in the marketing. For example, I think most folks at this site would agree that Maxlife is a better all around oil than All Climate. It seems HM oils are what the basic dino should be when we remove some of the CAFE pressure from the picture.
I did not say the PAO was a seal conditioner, just that that brand of HM had a % of PAO in it.
Most claim to have seal conditioners, by I made no correlation about the two.
Kev99, what type of vehicle did the oil leaks dry up on?
Most claim to have seal conditioners, by I made no correlation about the two.
Kev99, what type of vehicle did the oil leaks dry up on?
What is CAFE? I can't seem to find it in the BITOG acronym section.
CAFE is Corporate Average Fuel Economy. My understanding of the whole mess: The CAFE standards are developed by EPA. Auto companies are fined if they exceed. Every tiny increment in reduced fuel usage for the fleet (i.e., all the cars they sell) can save the auto companies big bucks, whereas the individual driver would see little to nothing of benefit in a single vehicle.
The auto companies are driven by the market to produce horsepower and that creates higher fuel consumption, so the companies move to thinner oils to reduce consumption a tiny fraction. They also try to cut vehicle weight, which potentially can be in opposition to safety. Also they make tiny little econo-box cars to balance against the big higher fuel consumption vehicles.
So EPA chooses to squeeze the auto companies and we get compromises in our vehicles and in our oil (probably fuel too). Not to say it is entirely bad as this (I believe) has driven the auto companies to produce much more efficient engines than back in the '60s when the solution to more power was often more cubic inches.
Now in Europe they do it differently. They squeeze from the fuel supply end with very high fuel prices (anybody know, maybe like $5 or $6 a gallon in US dollars?). This drives the consumer to demand smaller, more fuel efficient cars in general. Also in Europe the price of oil is very very high and that drives consumers to much longer oil change intervals than are typical here. That in turn motivated the oil industry to produce some pretty robust, long lasting oils over there.
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Ok, end of mind dump. Now how did I do? That was all from osmosis by being around this site for two years.
The auto companies are driven by the market to produce horsepower and that creates higher fuel consumption, so the companies move to thinner oils to reduce consumption a tiny fraction. They also try to cut vehicle weight, which potentially can be in opposition to safety. Also they make tiny little econo-box cars to balance against the big higher fuel consumption vehicles.
So EPA chooses to squeeze the auto companies and we get compromises in our vehicles and in our oil (probably fuel too). Not to say it is entirely bad as this (I believe) has driven the auto companies to produce much more efficient engines than back in the '60s when the solution to more power was often more cubic inches.
Now in Europe they do it differently. They squeeze from the fuel supply end with very high fuel prices (anybody know, maybe like $5 or $6 a gallon in US dollars?). This drives the consumer to demand smaller, more fuel efficient cars in general. Also in Europe the price of oil is very very high and that drives consumers to much longer oil change intervals than are typical here. That in turn motivated the oil industry to produce some pretty robust, long lasting oils over there.
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Ok, end of mind dump. Now how did I do? That was all from osmosis by being around this site for two years.
CAFE is the Big Brother's idea of getting better fuel economy from industry.
Corporate Average Fuel Economy.
In a nutshell, auto makers take all of their vehicles and come up with an average for their company.
Every so often the Fed's raise the CAFE standard. If the auto maker does not meet the corp avg fuel economy, they get hit with fines.
The best part is when they surpass the CAFE, they earn credits.
When an auto maker does not meet the CAFE, they can buy extra credits from another automaker to avoid the fines.
Is'nt America swell!
Many speculate that the introduction of 5-20 oils will boost MPG by 1% or so, thus boosting overall CAFE.
The same vehicle with the same engine here may require 5-20 in North America.
Export the same vehicle to Europe or Asia, and now the manual states the same engine needs 10-30, 5-40, 10-40, 15-40, 10-50 etc etc
More who know about all this may chime in.
Corporate Average Fuel Economy.
In a nutshell, auto makers take all of their vehicles and come up with an average for their company.
Every so often the Fed's raise the CAFE standard. If the auto maker does not meet the corp avg fuel economy, they get hit with fines.
The best part is when they surpass the CAFE, they earn credits.
When an auto maker does not meet the CAFE, they can buy extra credits from another automaker to avoid the fines.
Is'nt America swell!
Many speculate that the introduction of 5-20 oils will boost MPG by 1% or so, thus boosting overall CAFE.
The same vehicle with the same engine here may require 5-20 in North America.
Export the same vehicle to Europe or Asia, and now the manual states the same engine needs 10-30, 5-40, 10-40, 15-40, 10-50 etc etc
More who know about all this may chime in.
I'm must assume then that trucks/SUVs get a different CAFE rating than regular automobiles. That would explain why I see more trucks and SUVs on the road these days. The automobile manufacturers push those vehicles so they can make money and not have to attain the same CAFE rating as regular automobiles. Am I correct in this assumption?
The rise of trucks and SUV's here is related to popularity of this style of vehicle as a city/recreational type vehicle, even if in reality very few ever use their 4wd/awd ability. The biggest growth has been in the carlike mid-sized SUV's.
With the rise in fuel prices I would expect to see sales of large petrol 4wds drop and an increase in diesel and smaller sized more fuel efficient suv's. Diesel is not very popular for the average consumer as the vehicles cost more, servicing is more expensive and most fuel savings are offset by the higher price of diesel at the pump.
Petrol here is hitting $1.20 per litre and expected to go higher. The predictions are that it will need to hit $1.40 before people seriously consider changing to fuel efficent cars like the Prius.
Small/ cheap cars are a significant part of our market and these tend to be fairly fuel efficient.
BTW. The initial rise in sales of 4WD's here was due to a lower import tax as these were considered farm vehicles. Manufacturers such as Suburu took advantage of this loophole by raising the ground clearance of their vehicles.
With the rise in fuel prices I would expect to see sales of large petrol 4wds drop and an increase in diesel and smaller sized more fuel efficient suv's. Diesel is not very popular for the average consumer as the vehicles cost more, servicing is more expensive and most fuel savings are offset by the higher price of diesel at the pump.
Petrol here is hitting $1.20 per litre and expected to go higher. The predictions are that it will need to hit $1.40 before people seriously consider changing to fuel efficent cars like the Prius.
Small/ cheap cars are a significant part of our market and these tend to be fairly fuel efficient.
BTW. The initial rise in sales of 4WD's here was due to a lower import tax as these were considered farm vehicles. Manufacturers such as Suburu took advantage of this loophole by raising the ground clearance of their vehicles.
Adipate and Phalate are the most commom ester used from seal swell as in ATF.
bruce
bruce
If regular Maxlife is any guide then there may be 12-22 percent PAO in it, but the Synthetic version does not give CAS numbers in the MSDS. So it could be all Group III, "Synthetic." At any rate, the specs on the Product Data Sheets are great. Price, yeah it seems to run about $4.50 a quart. Have not seen it on sale anywhere.
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