HARLEY DAVIDSON ENGINE OIL QUESTION

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Originally Posted By: TucsonDon
Originally Posted By: fuel tanker man
the story just seemed fishy from the get-go.

For me it was the "they replaced three engines and never asked any questions" argument ... there's no way a dealer or manufacturer would do that. No way. Once, maybe. Twice, extremely unlikely. Three times? Forget about it.

Originally Posted By: fuel tanker man
Third, the idea that all of the oils foamed out of the crankcase except Redline is also suspect. Redline wouldn't resist foaming any more than Amsoil, I wouldn't think.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, take a look at that now-famous "Motorcycle Oil PDF" Amsoil touts. The only thing that separates them from Mobil 1 is the foaming test. They're proud of their anti-foaming capability. They tout it as a selling point of their oil.


10-4...

And I've been thinking...

I'll bet Mark doesn't like being represented by his friend here as some goober who just runs a bike wide open and never looks at the warning lights... never looks in the rear view for smoke... never glances down to notice oil surging out of the engine... and who hears his engine clattering but just keeps the throttle twisted wide open and keeps going.

STG better hope Mark doesn't see this thread.
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Okay I'm back. I just arrived in western Momtana to visit my son who just got back from Iraq. Anyway, the guy who likes to talk [censored] about Harleys is a troll and most likely does not even ride a bike, as I have not heard him talk about what kind of a bike he rides. I have the utmost respect for anyone who takes his life in his hands and gets on a public roadway on a motorcycle, no matter what brand they ride. Anyone who has to run down anyone's brand of motorcycle is a bit too juvenile for me. As he is on a motorcycle oil forum, he must lead a really boring life.

After reading the additional posts regarding the HDEO in a lighter weight, I think I will just stick with the M1 V-Twin 20W/50 oil. As I have started riding my bike a lot more due to the price of fuel, I thought I would save a few bucks, but at the cost of my engine it is not worth it.

Again, thanks for all of the replies.
 
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I forgot to add in my last post and it won't allow me to edit the post, how would the M1 silver cap automotive 15W/40 work? It's a full synthetic oil and a lot cheaper in the gallon jugs than the V-Twin oil. Or would I be back to the "Too light for the application" problem that I would have with the Delo 15W/40 oil?
 
Do you mean the M1 15W50 silver cap??? If so many many millions of miles have been run on HDs using this. Slightly less ZDDP (1200 vs about 1600 to 1800 in Vtwin) the rest of the additive package is the about the same as Vtwin and it most likely does not have as much PAO in the base oil (not fact just a guess based on M1s responses to questions where they dodge the issue). It is just a notch below Vtwin IMO for half the price. You can get it at Walmart in the 5 Qt. jug for about $23. In my opinion the best oil for the money for your application but the Vtwin is a bit better if you disregard cost.
 
Yes that is the oil I was refering to. V-Twin 20W/50 is $9.49 per quart here. After 8% sales tax that is about $40.00 in oil for an oil change. I change oil and filter at 5000 miles. About two times a year. I guess $80.00 a year for oil is not a big deal, but it would be nice to find a cheaper alternative. I have read on Harley forums that a lot of folks are using the 15W/50 silver cap with good results. I used to be able to find the 20W/50 automotive M1 at Auto Zone or Kragens, but they seem to have stopped stocking it as of late. I have not found a suppier for Redline in the small town I live in. So it's either M1 or have Amsoil shipped.

On another note, would it be better to use the 15W/50 silver cap vs the 15W/50 gold cap oil?
 
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The gold cap M1 is getting mixed reviews based on used oil analysis. You can find some of them on BITOG. Most are staying with silver cap for bikes as far as I can tell. I use silver cap in my old 94 Evo and am happy. The newer bike gets the higher priced stuff. Also you might try some of the hot rod and discount oil internet sites for Vtwin or Red Line. That is how I get my Red Line. Order by the case on line and some places give you free shiping for orders of $100 or more. Last time it came to about $8.20 per quart total cost delivered to my door step. That is a two to three year supply for me (case of 12).
 
This is an interesting article I found regarding Porshe air cooled engines and which oil to use in them. I believe it would apply to HD engines also. What say you?


Oil
What motor oil is best for my aircooled Porsche?
(or any high performance engine)
by Charles Navarro
Last Updated 05/09/08

The purpose of proper lubrication is to provide a physical barrier (oil film) that separates moving parts reducing wear and friction, but there are many surfaces within an engine that operate with metal-to-metal contact, again popular belief, that are very highly dependant on a strong and robust anti-wear film. The top piston ring operating in sliding contact with the bore operates in a mixed lubrication regime consisting of both boundary (metal-to-metal direct contact) as well as hydrodynamic (oil film between moving surfaces) lubrication. The majority of non-corrosive wear occurs where boundary lubrication exists, especially at cam lobes, tappets, cam follower/buckets, and rockers. Oils contain dispersants, friction modifiers, viscosity modifiers, anti-foam, anti-corrosion, antioxidant and anti-wear additives, all of which can affect the strength and durability of anti-wear films. The focus of this study is on the levels of zinc and phosphorus found in motor oils and their interactions with other additives, more exactly, the zinc (Zn) and phosphorus (P) that makes up the anti-wear additive ZDDP, zinc dialkyl dithiosphosphate, as the ZDDP level is causing concern for all older engines, including aircooled Porsches, with modern oils.

What general characteristics make motor oils specifically well suited to an aircooled or other high performance engine? Aside from recommendations issued by Porsche, what makes a good oil? These oils must be thermally stable, having a very high flashpoint, low noack volatility, and must “maintain proper lubrication and protect vital engine components under the extreme pressure and the high temperature conditions” found in aircooled Porsches. Porsche recommends and uses Mobil 1 0w40 as a factory fill in new vehicles and their 15w50 has been a popular choice used by many in the aftermarket in aircooled models. What was once considered a 'safe' oil is no longer as many of these lubricants have been reformulated for many reasons, not limited to allow for protection of emissions controls and for longer drain intervals.

Even prior to the introduction of the API's SM standard, there was concern that current API SL standards from back in 2003 may inhibit the backwards compatibility of motor oils, specifically referring to the limitation of ZDDP, which is "the most effective combined anti-wear and anti-oxidant additives currently available." SAE 2003-01-1957, Effect of Oil Drain Interval on Crankcase Lubricant Quality, Shell Global Solutions. The authors continue to state that oils are required to provide longer protection in severe operation but that an oils performance is "limited by environmental considerations." Furthermore, they state that it is hard to predict the effects of these reformulated oils in just a single oil change and may only be evident over an engine's lifetime. It is hard to know the full extent of the potential damage these new SM oils will have on our performance engines so chose your lubricants carefully.

Porsche’s recommendation in hand, our initial analysis from 2005 and 2006 and from virgin oil analyses going back to the 1990s, we found that then recent SH/SJ formulations of Mobil lubricants tested, including Mobil 1, have had higher Zn and P content than SL or current SM formulations. Even current "re-introduced" formulations are not the original formulations many shops and owners were used to. Aside from reduced Zn and P levels (now restored in certain products), many products with "adequate" Zn and P still use high levels of Ca detergents, well documented in various SAE publications as known for causing more wear than Ca/Mg or Ca/Mg/Na detergents, as previously used in oils like Mobil 1 15w50, back when it was API SH/SJ rated and prior to reformulation. This confirms the industry wide trend of the reduction of Zn and P from motor oils and switch to Ca-based detergents, with the eventual reduction to 0.06-0.08% or even worse, the elimination of these additives, which are essential to an aircooled Porsche engine's longevity.

Many Porsche repair shops have acknowledged that these newest SM and CJ-4 motor oils are not sufficient for protecting any Porsche engine. With longevity and the protection of vital engine components in mind, many shops are recommending non-approved motorcycle or racing oils, or the addition of oil supplements at every oil change, for their higher levels of protection.

Oil companies have been cutting back on the use of Zn and P as anti-wear additives and switching to alternative zinc-free (ZF) additives and ash-less dispersants in their new low SAPS oils since Zn, P, and sulfated ash have been found to be bad for catalytic converters. One such ZF dispersant/anti-wear additive is boron, which does not foul the catalysts in the particulate emissions filters or catalytic converters. For most owners, the reduction in longevity of a catalytic converter is a small price to pay considering the many thousands of dollars it costs to properly rebuild a Porsche engine. It is worth noting that most Porsches have lived the majority of their lives with high Zn and P oils as found in API SG-SJ oils as late as 2004, and we never hear of problems with their catalytic converters.

In addition to protecting emissions controls, there are many other design considerations in formulating engine lubricants, which include improving fuel economy and longer drain intervals. High friction can result in areas with boundary lubrication or where high viscous friction forces and drag may occur with hydrodynamic lubrication in bearings. The use of friction modifiers, such as moly (there are many different species of Mo-based friction modifiers, help to reduce friction in metal-to-metal contact with the formation of tribofilms characterized with their glassy, slippery surfaces. Lower viscosity motor oils are key to increasing fuel economy by their reduction in drag where high viscous friction occurs in hydrodynamic lubrication. While lower viscosities improve fuel economy greatly, they also reduce the hydrodynamic film strength and high temperature high shear viscosity of the motor oil, factors both of which are key to protecting high performance engines, especially aircooled ones.

However, it is worth noting that these new API guidelines do not need apply to “racing,” “severe duty,” or any motor oils that do not carry an API “starburst” seal or clearly state for off-road-use only. Motor oils meeting “Energy Conserving I or II” standards should be avoided as well as those with an API SM or ILSAC GF-4 classifications. The European ACEA A3/B3 "mid-SAPS" classifications, which place a cap on P levels at 0.10-0.12% but allow for higher Zn levels, to be better in taking into consideration wear and engine longevity, setting much lower wear limits, while still limiting emissions and protecting emissions control devices. It is common to find API SJ rated oils, particularly those meeting Volkswagen's stringent 505.01 standard for PD TDI engines, to also meet ACEA A3/B3 requirements. The current ACEA A3/B3 classifications require higher high-temperature high-shear (HTHS) viscosities, stay in grade sheer stability, and tighter limits on evaporative loss (noack volatility), high temperature oxidation, and piston varnish. This makes oils meeting these ACEA standards that much better for your Porsche, especially since wear limits are much more stringent for valve train wear, 1/6th to 1/4th the wear allowed in the sequences for API's newest SM or CJ-4 standards. Of particular interest is the upcoming ACEA E9 standard to supersede the API CJ-4 standard in Europe, creating a classification for low ash oils that are low detergent and are very effective in controlling wear in legacy engines.

Failure to use the right oil, use proper filtration, or observe proper changing intervals can affect the performance of even the best motor oil. This also includes changing the oil too often (needlessly bad for the environment and your wallet) or not often enough. Against conventional wisdom, engine wear decreases as oil ages to a certain extent, which means that changing your oil more frequently actually causes engine wear; these findings were substantiated by studies conducted by the auto manufacturers and petroleum companies, leading to drain intervals increased from 3,000mi/3 months to 5,000-7,500mi/6 months in most domestic vehicles, using mostly non-synthetic oils. Based off of extremely long drain intervals recommended by most European manufacturers, some in excess of two years and 20,000 mi, some users have found it best to reduce those intervals by half or even a quarter. Porsche for the 2008MY has reduced their extended drain intervals significantly to one year/12,000 mi, which is actually less miles than Porsche recommended back in the 1990s with 964 and 993 based aircooled 911s. Based on UOAs provided to us by our customers, new Porsche owners should consider reducing their drain intervals further to no more than 9,000 mi or one year and some shops recommend changes every 6,000 mi or six months.

Vehicles with track time or sustained high oil temperatures or RPMs should have their oil changed after every event (or every other event). This translates to a total of about 10 hours max, with vehicles with 12 qt or higher oil capacities- engines with smaller capacities must be changed more often. Vehicles subjected to very short drives or sustained operation in heavy traffic should indeed be serviced more often. Likewise, vehicles not driven often but driven hard a few times a year can probably go a year between oil changes, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use a good oil! Regular used oil analysis is the best way to determine ideal drain intervals for your driving habits - one good rule of thumb I have seen quoted is to change the oil with the TBN (total base number) is reduced by 50% of the original total (requiring you to also know your oil's virgin TBN). Another common recommendation is to change the oil once it's TAN (total acid number) equals the TBN. Other factors to consider are fuel dilution and shearing out of grade when determining your drain interval. With this knowledge in hand, using a quality motor oil with proper filtration and regular service is the best thing to do for your engine and to protect your investment.

Any information you may receive related to this web site is provided merely as friendly suggestions, not as expert opinion, testimony or advice. Neither LN Engineering nor Charles Navarro endorses or sponsors any information, products or methodologies you may find herein.
 
Good article. I believe YES it would also apply to HD engines as well. Lots of people with metric bikes or other water cooled bikes don't understand the points outlined by that author as they apply to an air cooled HD engine. Specifically with the longer stroked TC96 and the resulting heat generated by the increased rotational mass of that engine. The correct motor oil for the new engines is very critical.
 
That guy, Charles Navarro, moderates or heavily participates in "the ultimate oil thread" on a site called Pelican Parts. Yes a lot of good info there. It is a good thread too, about 40 some pages long. A lot of the 911 Carrera guys are still bitter about M1 red cap changing the formula a few years back so it is kind of anti M1 and they push Brad Penn Racing Oil. I think the discussion walks hand in hand with the HD oil discussion. He, by the way often reccomends motorcycle oil to the Porche owners (for those that think motorcycle oil is s joke). M1 Vtwin being one if his favorites. Apparently he travels to the Porche events and acts a oil consultant.
 
Originally Posted By: MULESKINNER



Many Porsche repair shops have acknowledged that these newest SM and CJ-4 motor oils are not sufficient for protecting any Porsche engine.


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In case you have not looked, the air cooled Porche / Flat Tappet / Muscle Car / HD / and air cooled metric crowds are all talking about the same subjects on their web sites. We are all in the same boat as far as trying to find oil alternatives. Fortunately some of the "boutique" blenders are catering to us. The big names are leaving us high and dry except for the evil Exxon Mobil. So if you are looking for some oil analysis that you can't find on BITOG or just want more information/opinions the MOPAR, Chevy SS, Porsche 911, etc. guys have info on their web sites as well. Of course none as esteemed as BITOG. I think the EPA just wants all of our vehicles to die and go away so we can all drive a Prius.
 
As I am in Montana right now and they do not charge sales tax here, I just bought my V-Twin oil at Wall Mart (Where I absolutly hate to shop) for $8.42 per quart with no sales tax.

That beats California Auto Zone's price by almost three dollars per quart when you figure 8% sales tax!!!! I wish I had the xtra money to buy up all of their stock,,,but I don't and I brought my small car with no room for all of that oil and the dogs, and my wife, Etc. (I guess I could leave her and the dogs here and take the oil,,,,,naw I best not do that)
 
Originally Posted By: MULESKINNER
Anyway, the guy who likes to talk [censored] about Harleys is a troll and most likely does not even ride a bike, as I have not heard him talk about what kind of a bike he rides. I have the utmost respect for anyone who takes his life in his hands and gets on a public roadway on a motorcycle, no matter what brand they ride. Anyone who has to run down anyone's brand of motorcycle is a bit too juvenile for me. As he is on a motorcycle oil forum, he must lead a really boring life.



I totally agree. I ride a Harley, graduated from College, am a white collar professional, have a wife & 3 kids, like Honda's, owned Yamahas (Motorcycles & pianos
grin2.gif
) And get real tired of people jabbing at each other based on what bike they ride. If I won the lottery I would buy several bikes and believe me they would not all be Harleys. I just don't get the brand bias deal and how is has transcended all logic. Who cares what anybody else rides? Motorcycle brands are like ice cream flavors IMO..some like vanilla some like chocolate but both like ice cream.
 
Not sure if y'all saw this PDF at the Mobil website:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

It shows the various Mobil brands, a pretty good description for each, a suggested type of vehicle application, API and ILSAC approvals, and "nominal phosphorus level."

One thing caught my eye -- SM and ILSAC GF-4 are not the same things. Rotella is SM but not ILSAC GF-4, hence its Ph is higher than 800. My guess is some who claim that SM is inadequate are thinking SM+ILSAC-GF-4, not just SM.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
.

HD thrives on brand loyality. In fact, they make as much money on merchandising (branded name sales such as shirts, hats, coffee mugs, clocks, playing cards, etc) as they do on bikes. The loyality to HD runs deep in many people. They will buy anything HD because they have been trained (or brainwashed, in my opinion) to believe that HD is simply the "best" of everything.
Yup, and probably all of there junk is made in CHINA!!
 
Originally Posted By: daves66nova
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
.

HD thrives on brand loyality. In fact, they make as much money on merchandising (branded name sales such as shirts, hats, coffee mugs, clocks, playing cards, etc) as they do on bikes. The loyality to HD runs deep in many people. They will buy anything HD because they have been trained (or brainwashed, in my opinion) to believe that HD is simply the "best" of everything.
Yup, and probably all of there junk is made in CHINA!!


"and probably all of their junk is made in CHINA"

Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm - really? The last several things I bought from Harley were Made in the USA. One was Taiwan. My God, what are you trying to spread.
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If the packaging didn't go out with the trash 2 weeks ago, I'd take pictures of them post them and show you. Knock off the [censored].
 
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