I own a lawn & landscape company, and I have several commercial grade ZTR's zero turn Mowers: Walker, SCAG, John Deere with donaldson or nelson canister heavy duty filters. Before switching to Amsoil i would change to oil with a quality 10w-30 synthetic oil. I had one engine blow with only 750hrs. Upon repowering, we tore into the blown engine, the high engine heat & load is what caused the engine failure. Since then I switched to Amsoils: AME 15w-40 12TBN HD marine diesel & gasoline oil, with great sucess, noticeable cooler engine temps & better overall performance, I have over 5 hours with no ill effect some (LCO) lawn care operators have said I am crazy, your voiding your warranty [censored]. I feel confident the engines will out last my other air cooled Kohlers with 15w-40. My theory is based on the fact: air cooled engines are cooled by ambient air passing over the cylinder head cooling fins, and the oil cooler, but more important the oil itself, unlike an liquid cooled engine; which uses a more efficient method of cooling water, and does not soley depend on the grade & quality of engine lubricant as air cooled engines.
Kohler Air cooled V-twins
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I would agree that an engine in commercial Heavy duty service can benefit from a 15W-40 or 5W-40 diesel-rated oil. This would especially be true for air-cooled engines in hot weather. Amsoil, Schaeffers, Mobil 1, and Rotella 40 weight synthetics would be my first choices, then conventional 15W-40's would be my second choice. 30 weights for break-in, cooler weather use and lighter duty, homeowner use. Don't forget quality filters. Cleaning the air cooled fins is an engine saver, too. There are lots of above-average oils out there, but may not be as well known or readily available.
Just curious, not trying to dis any particular brand/type of oil, but what oil were you consistently using in what engine that failed? (2 questions, actually)
Just curious, not trying to dis any particular brand/type of oil, but what oil were you consistently using in what engine that failed? (2 questions, actually)
I also have a lawn business that I have had for 23 years.
I switched all my stuff to Schaeffers Supreme 15W40 I have 2 Dixies, 2 hydro 48" WB all run great. The (1990) Dixie I had re-powered in 1999 with a 22 Kohler comand. RUNS GREAT
Running 15W40 oil weather it is AMSOIL or Scheffers you can not go wrong.
Best of luck.
Steve
I switched all my stuff to Schaeffers Supreme 15W40 I have 2 Dixies, 2 hydro 48" WB all run great. The (1990) Dixie I had re-powered in 1999 with a 22 Kohler comand. RUNS GREAT
Running 15W40 oil weather it is AMSOIL or Scheffers you can not go wrong.
Best of luck.
Steve
What kind of of quality 10w/30 syn oil was in the motor at time of failure?
It seems to me that oil choice in air-cooled small engines can be critical, as your 750 hour Kohler experience demonstrates.
This makes sense - in a water cooled car, you've got a thermostat and radiator that keeps the engine temps down, which hopefully keeps oil temps resonable.
In an air-cooled engine, there is no temperature regulation mechanism. As ambient temp and load goes up, so does the engine temp. It has too.
To add insult to injury, every air-cooled engine I've ever owned tends to trap grass and dirt in the cooling fins, making cooling even more of a challenge. Most people don't ever clean their cooling fins - and I feel guilty only cleaning mine once a year as it does build up...
This makes sense - in a water cooled car, you've got a thermostat and radiator that keeps the engine temps down, which hopefully keeps oil temps resonable.
In an air-cooled engine, there is no temperature regulation mechanism. As ambient temp and load goes up, so does the engine temp. It has too.
To add insult to injury, every air-cooled engine I've ever owned tends to trap grass and dirt in the cooling fins, making cooling even more of a challenge. Most people don't ever clean their cooling fins - and I feel guilty only cleaning mine once a year as it does build up...
Why not add the Kohler oil cooler?
Also, oversize oil filters give a few more oz. capacity and a few more sq-in cooling area, IF you have the room.
It may not sound like much, but the slightly greater oil capacity acts like a heat sink that can absorb some additional heat when mowing the thick patched that strain the engine. It can then lose that additional heat when the mowing is a little easier.
Once you start reaching "critical temperatures" (what ever that is), even 5-10 degrees cooler can seem like a lot.
Also, oversize oil filters give a few more oz. capacity and a few more sq-in cooling area, IF you have the room.
It may not sound like much, but the slightly greater oil capacity acts like a heat sink that can absorb some additional heat when mowing the thick patched that strain the engine. It can then lose that additional heat when the mowing is a little easier.
Once you start reaching "critical temperatures" (what ever that is), even 5-10 degrees cooler can seem like a lot.
I was using Mobile one 10w-30 when the Kohler engine failed; however their are many variables that were working against that engine,so i still would recommend Mobile one vs a Dino oil
The Kohler oil cooler is standard equipment on these engines, Also the larger capacity kohler oil filter does not clear the Walker Tail wheel.
The Kohler oil cooler is standard equipment on these engines, Also the larger capacity kohler oil filter does not clear the Walker Tail wheel.
For a commercial air cooled OPE application where the engine is going to run essentially all day long, most of the week, I wouldn't run anything BUT a heavy-duty engine oil in the 40wt range. I think it was Lonnie awhile back who posted a friend of his was able to make those Chinese honduh OHV look-alike 13hp engines run forever on 15w40, where 10w-30 would tear them up in short order in commercial service. FWIW, I've been running RT 5w40 in the Kohler Command 20 in my Cub Cadet 2544 garden tractor. The heat that pours off that thing is unreal in the summer with just my 1-3hrs/week mowings. It's seems like the manufacturers lean them out now to the point they run scorching hot at max governed speed.
Joel
Joel
I was going to mention about HDEO oil , syn or dino protect better in commercial type use..
Amsoil ASE SAE 30 would be us to the task as well.
Mobil 1 10W-30 was actually what I was guessing as the oil that was in the engine. I would rather have a 15W-40 conventional in an air-cooled engine for any type of use except cold winter weather- then I would use a synthetic 5W-40 or 0W-40. I would have 2 problems with Mobil 1 10W-30. First is the low viscosity at operating temp. Second is the reduced wear additives in the SM version. At least use the HM version if using Mobil 1 10W-30. It is higher viscosity and higher anti-wear adds.
Good to have you here, CumminsISB.
This is a subject that goes back to the very beginning of this website in 2001-2002. What's better for OPE (Outdoor Power Equipment) ... a 30 weight (which is usually manufacturer recommended) or a 40 weight (usually 5W-40 or 15W-40).
The debate has gone back and forth over the years with people like me going on hunch, 'seat-of-the-pants' dyno testing and what we know about engines and oils and recommending 5/15W-40 oils for these engines ... especially in high-heat conditions.
Depending on who was active on the forums, I got a lot of flack from fans of XW-30 synthetics as well as users of the 'tried and true' straight 30 oils because I couldn't 'prove' my recommendation was the best one.
CumminsISB, what oil drain interval do you use? I've got nothing against Amsoil but I think you'd see the same result with most of the 15W-40 oils available with Schaeffer being my #1 pick ...
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/700.pdf
... and Chevron Delo 400 15W-40 being a close second and significantly less expensive (ideal for relatively short drain intervals of 20-50 hours or so).
Most of the advantage of synthetics is their low-temp pour point ... something that is not of great concern to most residents of the deep south (and I'd include Memphis in this lot).
Mobil 1 is OK ... but is a bit thin in each grade (which is my #1 suspect in your 'early' engine failure) and usually doesn't have the add-pack that a HDEO (Heavy-Duty Engine Oil) does. Also, users are tempted to leave it in longer than they probably should and if high-heat shearing is your problem, long intervals are asking for trouble.
Please stick around and tell us how your equipment fares. It would benefit all of us on this forum.
i'm will bror,
high quality mineral oil HDEO 15w40 and change often especially if your machines are getting any sand, dust or dirt exposure.
nice benefit to a cost conscious bottom line return business like commercial lawn care with high labor and fuel costs is the low cost bulk purchase of 15w40 on sale in the gal. jugs or keep an eye on your trucker shops. they often have even better sales on 5 gal pails or 30 gal drums.
makes a good oil for your trucks also
high quality mineral oil HDEO 15w40 and change often especially if your machines are getting any sand, dust or dirt exposure.
nice benefit to a cost conscious bottom line return business like commercial lawn care with high labor and fuel costs is the low cost bulk purchase of 15w40 on sale in the gal. jugs or keep an eye on your trucker shops. they often have even better sales on 5 gal pails or 30 gal drums.
makes a good oil for your trucks also
Yep, the more frequent drainings are a plus ... especially in a machine with no filter. I'm pretty sure all the machines CumminsISB is talking about above HAVE spin-on filters. Most engines above 13hp do.
When you're in the business, maintenance is a very serious issue because every hour your machines are shut down and your guys are fooling with them is coming straight out of your pocket. No customer is paying (directly) for that time.
So, extended intervals are a serious plus ... but maybe not if the materials are triple the price and the time to do a change is only 5-10 minutes per unit (less if you have all the units in one place and one guy can just go along and drop all the plugs, remove the filter then re-install plugs & filters and refill with fresh oil (there are some economies of scale here when servicing multiple, similar units).
Changing oil filters often (which I recommend) adds to the servicing cost ... but cost of filters need-not be too punitive. The trick is to find a Purolator, etc ... cross reference and buy these in bulk. Benefits are lower cost and , as already mentioned, you can get a larger filter with more filter area and enhanced cooling ability for $2-3 each. Most machines I have seen have plenty of room for a taller filter.
Problem is, one of the best things you can do for your machines, maybe even more important than frequent oil changes, is maintenance on the air filter. And here, doing a good job does take a considerable amount of time. Usually there's a foam element involved so cleaning, drying a re-oiling is in order and each step can be a messy consumer of precious time.
In all OPE, I'd also use a top-oil of some sort (at least every 2nd or 3rd tank of fuel): MMO, 2-cycle oil (@ 250:1), Lucas UCL etc , to reduce wear on the rings.
I break in new equipment using a LOT of upper cyl lube so as to make sure the rings are broken in slowly and properly ... but still stay on the tight side. Benefit is more compression (power) and lower oil consumption throughout the unit's life.
I wish I was a kid again (for various reasons) but specifically working for a landscaper so I could put machines on different maintenance schedules to see if frequent (obsessive?) maintenance could be made profitable by the fact of longer unit life.
When you're in the business, maintenance is a very serious issue because every hour your machines are shut down and your guys are fooling with them is coming straight out of your pocket. No customer is paying (directly) for that time.
So, extended intervals are a serious plus ... but maybe not if the materials are triple the price and the time to do a change is only 5-10 minutes per unit (less if you have all the units in one place and one guy can just go along and drop all the plugs, remove the filter then re-install plugs & filters and refill with fresh oil (there are some economies of scale here when servicing multiple, similar units).
Changing oil filters often (which I recommend) adds to the servicing cost ... but cost of filters need-not be too punitive. The trick is to find a Purolator, etc ... cross reference and buy these in bulk. Benefits are lower cost and , as already mentioned, you can get a larger filter with more filter area and enhanced cooling ability for $2-3 each. Most machines I have seen have plenty of room for a taller filter.
Problem is, one of the best things you can do for your machines, maybe even more important than frequent oil changes, is maintenance on the air filter. And here, doing a good job does take a considerable amount of time. Usually there's a foam element involved so cleaning, drying a re-oiling is in order and each step can be a messy consumer of precious time.
In all OPE, I'd also use a top-oil of some sort (at least every 2nd or 3rd tank of fuel): MMO, 2-cycle oil (@ 250:1), Lucas UCL etc , to reduce wear on the rings.
I break in new equipment using a LOT of upper cyl lube so as to make sure the rings are broken in slowly and properly ... but still stay on the tight side. Benefit is more compression (power) and lower oil consumption throughout the unit's life.
I wish I was a kid again (for various reasons) but specifically working for a landscaper so I could put machines on different maintenance schedules to see if frequent (obsessive?) maintenance could be made profitable by the fact of longer unit life.
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