I'm not saying you couldn't make a good race oil with some group III. But 100% group III? Not.
What oil for Formula 1 cars?
- Thread starter ToyotaNSaturn
- Start date
- Status
McLarens use Mobil 1 RACING Oil, believe me you do not run a 2million dollar engine on oil you can buy off the shelf. Just doesn't happen.
A year ago there was an article on the oiling system in Schuies Ferrari, it had, I believe, 7 or 8 small oil scavenge pumps and of course it uses a dry sump system and there is not oil flying all around like in a normal car.
Senna
A year ago there was an article on the oiling system in Schuies Ferrari, it had, I believe, 7 or 8 small oil scavenge pumps and of course it uses a dry sump system and there is not oil flying all around like in a normal car.
Senna
What about a blend of GIII, GIV, and GV as the basestock? Keep the viscosity low and wouldn't one have quite a shear stable, additive soluable, tough oil?
I am still curious about the "spider web strands" though...
I am still curious about the "spider web strands" though...
As far as fuel is concerned Shell makes fuel for those Red Cars from Maranello, Elf make it for the current French Champions.
Shell has 40 engineers working full time for Maranello and they x-ray the oil to obtain spec's of metal to see what is waring in the engine.
Fuel for all F1's is so far from pump fuel that its ridiculous, about equal to the moon.
Years ago while in Montreal, they were brewing fuel for various teams with those turbo cars, it was said that the fuel at that time was $200 pergallon for qualifying fuel, but worth 110hp and of course at that time all of those engines were built/programmed for about 5 laps before blowing up.
Senna
Shell has 40 engineers working full time for Maranello and they x-ray the oil to obtain spec's of metal to see what is waring in the engine.
Fuel for all F1's is so far from pump fuel that its ridiculous, about equal to the moon.
Years ago while in Montreal, they were brewing fuel for various teams with those turbo cars, it was said that the fuel at that time was $200 pergallon for qualifying fuel, but worth 110hp and of course at that time all of those engines were built/programmed for about 5 laps before blowing up.
Senna
MolaKule
Staff member
Thw spider-web strands are most likely due to a surfactant similar to a compound called "ELCA," which helps the oil cling and reduces friction.
Racing oils can have a viscosity anywhere from 5 cSt to 25 cSt, but generally speaking, the higher the rev the lower the vis. At these engine revs, I suspect a 0W20 weight loaded with ELCA, ZDDP and moly.
Racing oils can have a viscosity anywhere from 5 cSt to 25 cSt, but generally speaking, the higher the rev the lower the vis. At these engine revs, I suspect a 0W20 weight loaded with ELCA, ZDDP and moly.
ELCA ?? New on on me never heard of this one.
bruce
bruce
Given that the new V-8 Formula one engines are still turning almost 20,000 rpms. I would have thought then, based on the faster the engine turns, the thinner you would want, that these engines would be using strictly 0 weights, or the technical variation of something like water. With the ELCA additive you describe, that would keep the oil clinging, without any drag associated with normal viscosities.
That would make for an interesting "street brew" oil, wouldn't it?!?
That would make for an interesting "street brew" oil, wouldn't it?!?
the mobil 1 they use do not equal the oil u can buy at walmart
actually it's not anywhere close at all
but in europe they got Mobil 1 Gold and Shell Ultra Helix which is not available here in the US market, they are superior to the ones we can get here
actually it's not anywhere close at all
but in europe they got Mobil 1 Gold and Shell Ultra Helix which is not available here in the US market, they are superior to the ones we can get here
Quote:
honda runs eneos, which you can buy a very similiar blend to what honda is running, its their 0w50. they actually run a 0w70 in the ra107 chassis, but they ran the 0w50 in the ra106 chassis.
mcclaren runs mobil synthetic, another oil you can not purchase because they dont sell to consumers because you couldnt afford it.
Why a 0w-50 though?
honda runs eneos, which you can buy a very similiar blend to what honda is running, its their 0w50. they actually run a 0w70 in the ra107 chassis, but they ran the 0w50 in the ra106 chassis.
mcclaren runs mobil synthetic, another oil you can not purchase because they dont sell to consumers because you couldnt afford it.
Why a 0w-50 though?
maybe zero weight because they idle at 7,000 or 8,000 rpm
that could be a shock on startup
that could be a shock on startup
According to the latest top gear. A renault F1 engine (alonso's car) cost approx $300,000. I would assume that most F1 engines are around the same price.
PS. That is the price of last years V10 monsters.
PS. That is the price of last years V10 monsters.
I recall one of the commentators on Speed saying during a F1 race that the gear box would easily be > $100k, $150k maybe. These are very low production units with high development costs & continuous changes. 800-1000 F1 personnel ain't cheap.
Originally Posted By: senna
...
Fuel for all F1's is so far from pump fuel that its ridiculous, about equal to the moon.
...
Senna
Are you sure about that?: FIA Technical Regulation regarding fuel in F1
...
Fuel for all F1's is so far from pump fuel that its ridiculous, about equal to the moon.
...
Senna
Are you sure about that?: FIA Technical Regulation regarding fuel in F1
You may have read this. I was curious myself came into this thread little late.
Poly-ol ester lubricants really came into their own with the advent of the F1 turbo engine. 1500cc developing 1200 bhp. Maybe if the old adage 'The older I get, the faster I was.' is true, there really were 1500 bhp qualifying engines. Certainly the phrase '1000 bhp per litre' has a certain ring to it. Those of us who were stood at the Woodcote chicane for final qualifying for the 1985 British Grand Prix, when Keke Rosberg took pole position with an engine that melted its cylinder heads as he went across the line, have a sneaking feeling it might have been true. Gas turbine oil was well within its operating envelope in such conditions. The oil that lubricated that Honda engine in the Williams was called Mugen Oil and is spoken of in whispers in paddocks around the world, even today, as the answer to a fast lap in qualifying. It was produced by the Mobil competition department and still circulates at very inflated prices. (Indeed, I suspect that there is far more Mugen Oil in use now than was ever produced then, which is an interesting thought to folks who have paid big money for an unmarked can) In today's terms Mugen Oil is a fairly conventional 30 weight poly-ol ester, with the interesting addition of fish oil for certain applications. Yes, it does smell particularly dreadful, but there is a belief in the orient that it is a good slipperiness additive.
Poly-ol ester lubricants are still the very best lubricants available. All oil company competition departments have their own particular variations for their own sponsored teams. A steady stream of poly-ol ester oils leave these departments and trickle down to all other levels of racing. The club racer who has a friend, who has a friend, who has got him a special from high street company X competition department, has probably got a poly-ol ester lubricant. The danger of course is that the friend has got a free sample of gearbox oil, designed to run with silicon oil seals. He then puts this magic oil in his engine and is surprised and amazed when the oil complete with dissolved rubber oil seals and a couple of pistons in kit form fall out on the road, closely followed by the camshaft. Be warned also: race oils do not contain detergents, another cause of detonation in high compression engines. With no detergent package in your oil you can soon block oilways with the sludge from a bunch of cold starts.
Do you need a poly-ol ester oil for road use? If you are reading this, then you are interested in getting the best out of, and for, your vehicle, or you may be at the dentist. Poly-ol ester based lubricants have the advantage that your engine will never wear them out. They are as useful in a old wrecker with piston rings hanging off and bearing shells dropping out as in a multi-thousand pound race engine. Another useful property of the oil is that it does not break down in storage, as does a mineral oil. A vehicle may be left for years with the oil in the sump, and started up as fresh as a daisy when needed. Added to this is the extreme stickiness of the oil, which coats all parts with which it comes into contact and does not creep off, as do other 'synthetics'. For this reason many invaluable vintage, veteran and classic vehicles use nothing else. High street oil companies use poly-ol esters as additives - a very recent marketing exercise suggests that a wondrous new breakthrough in chemical engineering has developed this sticky oil additive, indeed magnet like, which when added to a mineral oil base produces a significant lubrication technology break-through! This semi-synthetic product retails at virtually the same price as poly-ol ester based lubricants! The synthetic brand leader, Mobil 1, is 'tri-synthetic', a mixture of PAO, di-ester and poly-ol ester and indeed brags on the can about jet engine technology. Unfortunately for the discerning motorist, the marketing men have decided that in the small UK market we only deserve one of the wide range of Mobil 1 synthetics available in the US, which cannot suit all engines.
Link:
http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/engine_oil_history.shtml
Poly-ol ester lubricants really came into their own with the advent of the F1 turbo engine. 1500cc developing 1200 bhp. Maybe if the old adage 'The older I get, the faster I was.' is true, there really were 1500 bhp qualifying engines. Certainly the phrase '1000 bhp per litre' has a certain ring to it. Those of us who were stood at the Woodcote chicane for final qualifying for the 1985 British Grand Prix, when Keke Rosberg took pole position with an engine that melted its cylinder heads as he went across the line, have a sneaking feeling it might have been true. Gas turbine oil was well within its operating envelope in such conditions. The oil that lubricated that Honda engine in the Williams was called Mugen Oil and is spoken of in whispers in paddocks around the world, even today, as the answer to a fast lap in qualifying. It was produced by the Mobil competition department and still circulates at very inflated prices. (Indeed, I suspect that there is far more Mugen Oil in use now than was ever produced then, which is an interesting thought to folks who have paid big money for an unmarked can) In today's terms Mugen Oil is a fairly conventional 30 weight poly-ol ester, with the interesting addition of fish oil for certain applications. Yes, it does smell particularly dreadful, but there is a belief in the orient that it is a good slipperiness additive.
Poly-ol ester lubricants are still the very best lubricants available. All oil company competition departments have their own particular variations for their own sponsored teams. A steady stream of poly-ol ester oils leave these departments and trickle down to all other levels of racing. The club racer who has a friend, who has a friend, who has got him a special from high street company X competition department, has probably got a poly-ol ester lubricant. The danger of course is that the friend has got a free sample of gearbox oil, designed to run with silicon oil seals. He then puts this magic oil in his engine and is surprised and amazed when the oil complete with dissolved rubber oil seals and a couple of pistons in kit form fall out on the road, closely followed by the camshaft. Be warned also: race oils do not contain detergents, another cause of detonation in high compression engines. With no detergent package in your oil you can soon block oilways with the sludge from a bunch of cold starts.
Do you need a poly-ol ester oil for road use? If you are reading this, then you are interested in getting the best out of, and for, your vehicle, or you may be at the dentist. Poly-ol ester based lubricants have the advantage that your engine will never wear them out. They are as useful in a old wrecker with piston rings hanging off and bearing shells dropping out as in a multi-thousand pound race engine. Another useful property of the oil is that it does not break down in storage, as does a mineral oil. A vehicle may be left for years with the oil in the sump, and started up as fresh as a daisy when needed. Added to this is the extreme stickiness of the oil, which coats all parts with which it comes into contact and does not creep off, as do other 'synthetics'. For this reason many invaluable vintage, veteran and classic vehicles use nothing else. High street oil companies use poly-ol esters as additives - a very recent marketing exercise suggests that a wondrous new breakthrough in chemical engineering has developed this sticky oil additive, indeed magnet like, which when added to a mineral oil base produces a significant lubrication technology break-through! This semi-synthetic product retails at virtually the same price as poly-ol ester based lubricants! The synthetic brand leader, Mobil 1, is 'tri-synthetic', a mixture of PAO, di-ester and poly-ol ester and indeed brags on the can about jet engine technology. Unfortunately for the discerning motorist, the marketing men have decided that in the small UK market we only deserve one of the wide range of Mobil 1 synthetics available in the US, which cannot suit all engines.
Link:
http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/engine_oil_history.shtml
Production motorcycle, consumer oils...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YZF-R6
In 2006, Yamaha advertised the R6 as capable to running at up to 17,500+ rpm. This is 2000 rpm higher than the previous R6 model and it is the highest redline of a widely distributed production four-stroke engine – the Honda CBR250RR had a reputed redline of 19,000. Such a high speed is near to levels known only in Formula One engines, where valve springs stress problems lead to the adoption of pneumatic return at more than 19,000 rpm.[2]
But it was widely reported that the 2006 YZF-R6's motor did not have this redline level and was closer to around 16,200 rpm, because of a tachometer error of about 9%. In February 2006, Yamaha admitted the bike's true redline was more than 1,000 rpm lower than advertised,[3] and offered to buy back any R6 if the customer was unhappy.[4]Even though some riders have reported this to not be a problem and are actually able to rev higher than the 17,500RPM's and well in to the 18,000RPM range.
http://www.r6messagenet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41403
Welcome to The R6 Messagenet.
The largest resource for the Yamaha YZF-R6 and YZF-R6S
Motor Oils
If you read the manual you will notice it says to use Non-EC (energy conserving) oils only. This is what you should look for on the back of the oil bottle, it will not say Energy Conserving on the bottom. Because your motorcycle has a wet clutch, and is actually partially submerged in the oil, some say your clutch will slip. Debates rage on as to whether this is a needed concern, or just a marketing ploy playing on your fears, to get you to spend extra money for motorcycle specific oils.
15w50, 10w40, 5w30 and 5w20 are the most common oils used in our bikes. Brands are generally personal preference, but most here will recommend Mobil1. Mobil1's "Extended Life" 15w50 (Red Cap Replacement) motor oil is a favorite of many, and their new "Truck and SUV" 5w30 is also a great oil, free of any friction modifiers (EC rating).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YZF-R6
In 2006, Yamaha advertised the R6 as capable to running at up to 17,500+ rpm. This is 2000 rpm higher than the previous R6 model and it is the highest redline of a widely distributed production four-stroke engine – the Honda CBR250RR had a reputed redline of 19,000. Such a high speed is near to levels known only in Formula One engines, where valve springs stress problems lead to the adoption of pneumatic return at more than 19,000 rpm.[2]
But it was widely reported that the 2006 YZF-R6's motor did not have this redline level and was closer to around 16,200 rpm, because of a tachometer error of about 9%. In February 2006, Yamaha admitted the bike's true redline was more than 1,000 rpm lower than advertised,[3] and offered to buy back any R6 if the customer was unhappy.[4]Even though some riders have reported this to not be a problem and are actually able to rev higher than the 17,500RPM's and well in to the 18,000RPM range.
http://www.r6messagenet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41403
Welcome to The R6 Messagenet.
The largest resource for the Yamaha YZF-R6 and YZF-R6S
Motor Oils
If you read the manual you will notice it says to use Non-EC (energy conserving) oils only. This is what you should look for on the back of the oil bottle, it will not say Energy Conserving on the bottom. Because your motorcycle has a wet clutch, and is actually partially submerged in the oil, some say your clutch will slip. Debates rage on as to whether this is a needed concern, or just a marketing ploy playing on your fears, to get you to spend extra money for motorcycle specific oils.
15w50, 10w40, 5w30 and 5w20 are the most common oils used in our bikes. Brands are generally personal preference, but most here will recommend Mobil1. Mobil1's "Extended Life" 15w50 (Red Cap Replacement) motor oil is a favorite of many, and their new "Truck and SUV" 5w30 is also a great oil, free of any friction modifiers (EC rating).
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
