zmax = engine damage?

[racetek27]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: racetek27
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Why did they have to pay out a $1,000,000 if the product was all it claims to be?


Oil Chem's goal was to conduct the necessary ASTM/SAE testing to prove their performance claims, which they did.

The 1 million payout to users, pre Janurary 2001 was something the FTC requested.

What people are not aware of is the same people that were offered money out of the requested funds at the conclusion of the case were also offered a full 30 day money back guarantee back when they originally purchased the product ??????

From what I remember, you could basically count the number of money back guarantee requests on one hand .


The FTC requested it for good reason I'm sure. As far as money back guarantees it is something companies offer and payout very little on, it's a sales tool. Some companies offer them and then give the customer a hard way to go when it comes time to make good.

If the members I listed above chime in and think this is a product with merit, I'll look into it more. For now I have my doubts. I've tried several products mentioned here on Bitog, and have a short list of what I call good additives. I got burnt once for doing my homework too fast, and second guessing myself. My first impressions are usually spot on.


If you can get me one of those members that are not affiliated with an additive or oil company and can provide an unbiased technical opinion for the members, I'll have them contact our oil/tribologist Maurice LePera.

Mr LePera was our expert witness on the FTC case and actually worked for the FTC against several additive companies, so he's been on both sides of the street.

Mr LePera requested that before he would represent zMax, the product had to prove that it soaked into metal which it successfully did.

When we're finished,you'll understand the product to a much higher degree.

Thanks

Ed

 

[demarpaint]

That would be up to them, not me. Hopefully they'll weigh in here. For now I'll pass on buying, keep an open mind, or wait on a free sample to test for myself.

 

[Johnny]

racetek27 (Ed), check your PM box.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: rcy
Quote:


the zMAX formula for aviation, is FAA approved for all piston driven aircraft and has been available since 1980.


Do Boeing and Airbus know about this stuff? Think of the fuel savings alone...

That could mean it does not do anything so it is safe to use.

 

[edhackett]

Steve S is correct. The FAA does not test "approved" additives to confirm benefits. FAA approval just shows that the additive will do no harm if used as directed.

Ed

 

[Sayjac]

I'll keep this post simple. Snake oil, I'll pass.

 

[Loobed]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
I'll keep this post simple. Snake oil, I'll pass.


I would rather use snake oil than Zmax.

 

[Johnny]

Don't knock it, unless you've tried it.

My gosh, give Ed a break. He comes on here, openly tells who he is and who he works for, openly says he is willing to answer all questions, and folks on here treat him like satin.

I thought we were all better than this.

Ed, since no one else has, I say

you have the attention of some.

 

[Sayjac]

Just as a point of information, there have been several posts deleted from this thread. An over 3year old thread was ressurrected with no initial background information of who the poster was. It was only after members' questioning that it was revealed. So IMO, it was something less than "openly".

As for using the product before being able to comment on the product. I haven't used Synlube, Prolong Oil Treatment or many other products I have no intention of ever trying. Does that mean I can't have an opinion on those products? Many folks tried Slick 50 and wish they hadn't.

Again, I'll pass.

 

[TurboJim]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
I'll keep this post simple. Snake oil, I'll pass.


While this may be your opinion it hardly adds to the discussion.

 

[Johnny]

Tarjan is the one that reopened this thread, not Ed from Oil-Chem. And no, we are all entitled to our opinions, but I think they should be on actual facts or test results, which this product has. Snake oil is kind of a loose term that we all seem to get carried away with.

And my original link on the MSDS was deleted because of non-sponsor site. It's a MSDS for crying out loud, not a sales sheet, and in my opinion should be left posted.

So here it is again:


http://www.zmax.com/documents/msds_102_engine.pdf

 

[Spyder7]

I'm willing to keep an open mind and use the rare opportunity this is to have an open discussion about their product with a knowledgeable person from the company, as we have here now. Its not often we get that chance, so I'm willing to make the most of it. When asked, indirectly, if he had affiliation with the company, he replied immediately that he did and gave his exact position there, which satisfies me.

As I said, to me this is a rare opportunity and one to make the most of. So far he has already provided us with more information than we could easily find on our own (and some of it we may not be able to find at all). I welcome any further contributions he makes - it may, or may not, motivate me to buy the product, but the insider knowledge and resources he can tap to answer questions makes the contributions well worth reading IMHO.

Ultimately we can then decide for ourselves, individually, if the information provided warrants a trial of the product or not.

-Spyder

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
Tarjan is the one that reopened this thread, not Ed from Oil-Chem
Perhaps you should pm 'Trajan' to see if that statement is factual information.

Again, several posts were deleted in this thread, and afaik racetek reopened this thread, but either way no initial indication of affiliation. He has 14 posts listed yet only 12 list under his name. 2 missing.

And IMO, my post shouldn't have been deleted either, but I guess being a more established poster the gives one the right to re post information taken down by a mod.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: racetek27

zMax is a pure petroleum product modified at the molecular level.

It's not an oil additive ( see SAE J357 )and is a Micro-Lubricant that's recognized by the Tribology Society.

If you go to their web site [non-sponsor link] and click on TECHNICAL,at the bottom of the page,you can read zMax Micro-lubricant, the Fact's which is their ASTM/SAE test info.

You'll see that the zMax was tested before and after it's reformation which showed a change in it's molecule.

If you go to METAL PENETRATION on the report,that's where zMax proved it's ability to soak 82% deeper into the metal sub-surface than Motor Oil alone.

The AUGER ELECTRON SPECTROSCOPY TEST uses a Laser beam to very accurately peel the metal away and check the depth that the oil has reached.

zMax uses Micro-Lubrication and soaks into the metal, weeping out and cooling the excess frictional heat that develops on the tips of the jagged machined tooling imperfections.

By cooling and providing increased surface lubrication, zMax helps the Motor Oil and Fuel do the job they were designed for.

That is complete BUNK. ALL oil molecules are far smaller than the asperities on the surface of the metal. Oil molecules are about 10 angstroms accross.
And you will only get cooling if you have circulation of the molecules which will not be occuring if they are stuck deep down in a "crack".

And if your oil is "penetrating" into metal then you have a crack in the structure which is a REALLY bad thing.

The AW that is "painted on" as you say offers an ablative surface that get worn away instead of the metal. Z-max with "altered" oil molecules provides no such thing.

Please tell us the physical size and molecular weight of the "micro lube" molecules in your oil.

 

[Mystic]

Johnny I was not intending to be rude or anything. Everybody has a right here to discuss any oil supplement. After all this section is for the discussion of oil additives. And I have encouraged people myself to discuss whatever they want to discuss. And you are one of the people I respect the most at this website.

I do have some questions however about the effectiveness of this Zmax oil supplement or engine treatment or whatever it should be called. Of course, if we were to discover that it actually worked I would consider using it myself.

It is interesting that one million dollars had to be returned to people who had bought Zmax before January, 2001 (I think it was January 1). So there must have been a problem with Zmax up until that time. Perhaps they changed the formulation after that. I also get the impression that the FTC did not want to get into an extended court procedure over Zmax.

Cadillac was able to get some positive results but I also feel that engines in new cars need to function properly if they are designed well without the need for anything other than quality motor oil.

 

[TurboJim]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
I do have some questions however about the effectiveness of this Zmax oil supplement or engine treatment or whatever it should be called. Of course, if we were to discover that it actually worked I would consider using it myself.


I've not used zMax myself but against my recommendation my brother-in-law reciently did. I was able to get him to hold off putting the product in immediatly after doing an oil change in his 2007 Avalon. I explained to him him that he at least needed to establish a baseline first.

After a few hundred miles he did add zMax. I asked him if he could tell a difference? He told me that no he couldn't tell a difference.

I'm willing to use a product if there is a good chance I'll recieve a benefit from it. At this point I remain skeptical since I don't personally know anyone who's had a good result with it.

 

[sprintman]

Butt dyno is worthless. I'm open to learning more about this product so keep it coming please.

 

[TurboJim]

Originally Posted By: sprintman
Butt dyno is worthless. I'm open to learning more about this product so keep it coming please.


Butt dyno? Who mentioned butt dyno? I'm all for keeping the information coming as well. We might actually lean something as a result.

 

[Mystic]

Like I said above I believe new car engines should run just fine without the need for an oil supplement. But the Cadillac results are interesting.

 

[Tempest]

Since this is basically pure mineral oil, please provide us:

100 and 40C viscosity. Small molecules = lower viscosity so this should be interesting.

HTHS

Aniline point

and most importantly, NOACK.

Oil "Soaking into the metal" is meaningless. This is going on BELOW the level of the asperities so it does nothing to prevent the asperities from colliding. Only oil IN BETWEEN the parts and above the asperities is going to do any good and your product will simply reduce the viscosity.

ZDDP pads are 60-100 nano-meters thick and EP films are about 3-6 micro meters. So ZDDP pads are 600 to a 1000 times thicker than oil molecules and EP films are 30,000 or more times thicker than oil molecules.

Which do you think provides better protection?



Look at the claims they can legally make. Most of them say:
"by virtue of reducing engine deposits". This means it has a lot solvent properties and helps to clean. This makes sense with the very light base oil. And reduces friction? Compared to what? No oil at all?

If you google the CAS # on the their MSDS, the first thing that comes up is LAMP OIL. Now there are many different types of products under one CAS but this give you some idea as to the type of light weight, solventy type oil being sold here.