ZDDP

[m37charlie]

But, as always, the question is "How Much ZDP is Enough?" - SAE Technical Article #2004-01-2986.
The conclusion is, for all engines except non broken in flat tappet engines with high valve spring pressures: 600ppm P
P>1600ppm can cause increased wear, not decreased. And >2000ppm can cause catastropic chunking of the camshaft lobes due to a chemical reaction with the metal.
No modern oil made has "no ZDDP" but many have P between 6-800ppm.
If they go lower I do predict problems will occur.
I choose to have P at 1360ppm in my oil in my big truck.

Regarding Cu - it is present in bronze, some engines have bronze bushings here and there, like for instance some roller tappets.

Charlie

 

[azsynthetic]

My last four UOAs (in the UOA forum) on my VW 1.9L TDI with Z and P level close to 2000ppm/each show no affect on my cam lobe. The high Z and P level is due to the Redline Race Oil blend. Moly is also at around 1000ppm.

 

[JSRT4]

I concur with Charlie on this, I'm running Redline's Breakin additive in my car, at 4oz per 5 quarts, just enough boost to get things back to levels used in past oils. It can boost a low SAP oil just enough at this rate. Redline's recommended rate is more for racing purposes, I think a 1/4 bottle per 5 quart sump is perfect. I like the way Redline gives you the estimated boost up levels on their website based on quantity used and sump size. This additive also boosts Phosphorous, another good additive that is being lowered these days.

 

[ueberooo]

Thanks Charlie,

Quote:
I choose to have P at 1360ppm in my oil in my big truck.


That's probably very close to optimum IMO.

P in the 6 to 800 range is a little worrisome. I really could care less for the cat; if it goes I'll replace it. It's not as if palladium is very expensive.

 

[mechtech2]

We are past the oil film protection for either additive to begin to work.
They lowered the ZDDP because is was not necessary for the vast majority of engines out there.
Sure, High performance is another story, but it is really rare in the grand scheme of things.

 

[m37charlie]

Originally Posted By: JSRT4
This additive also boosts Phosphorous, another good additive that is being lowered these days.


Remeber, the Zn and P are together in one type of molecule, zinc dialkyl (or aryl) dithiophosphate. It's not like adding elemental Zn or P, or S for that matter. That particular molecule reacts with hardened steel to form a somewhat sacrificial coating. Too much of it and the reaction can go too deep into the steel. Like if you dumped one or especially 2 bottles of ZDDPlus or Redline Breakin into 5 qts of 800ppm oil, you'd get ~4000ppm P and bad things could happen.
The elemental components are significant when the oil is burned in the combustion chamber and goes out the exhaust. It's no longer ZDDP; it's ZnO2 (ash - clogs DPF), SO2 (reacts with cat), phosphorus I don't know what, maybe Ca/Mg phosphate, reacts with cat.

Charlie

 

[ADFD1]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Originally Posted By: JSRT4
This additive also boosts Phosphorous, another good additive that is being lowered these days.


Remeber, the Zn and P are together in one type of molecule, zinc dialkyl (or aryl) dithiophosphate. It's not like adding elemental Zn or P, or S for that matter. That particular molecule reacts with hardened steel to form a somewhat sacrificial coating. Too much of it and the reaction can go too deep into the steel. Like if you dumped one or especially 2 bottles of ZDDPlus or Redline Breakin into 5 qts of 800ppm oil, you'd get ~4000ppm P and bad things could happen.
The elemental components are significant when the oil is burned in the combustion chamber and goes out the exhaust. It's no longer ZDDP; it's ZnO2 (ash - clogs DPF), SO2 (reacts with cat), phosphorus I don't know what, maybe Ca/Mg phosphate, reacts with cat.

Charlie


Not to hi-jack a thread. Does Mos2 corrode yellow metals? I was told by the Rosemill people it is non-caustic to any metal inside an engine. Then I've read elsewhere it can be harmful to "yellow metals". I don't really see what it can damage in an engine. The question was asked here, but I am a little confused now.

 

[wannafbody]

Lucus has a break in oil available at Advance for $15.