ZDDP in newer engines

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: IT_Architect
The general consensus on this thread is that restoring ZDDP to legacy levels would provide minimal benefit.

The biggest issue is that these "legacy levels" never really existed in the first place. During the times when the higher levels of ZDDP would have provided the greatest benefits, the levels were actually significantly lower than they are now. When the levels did rise, they certainly didn't rise across the board, with plenty of oils having high levels, while many others had levels far below what is currently available.

Things are a little more consistent now. Current oils bump up against the upper phosphorous limits a lot more closely than they did in the past when the limits were much higher. If anyone is thinking that all oils, or even the majority of them, in the 1970s and 1980s were clones of M1 Racing, or even VR1, then that person is sadly misinformed.

To me, "legacy levels" means you have no idea what you got. Look at the current oils that don't face the 30 grade and GF-5 limitations, such as straight grades, 20w-50, and so forth. VOAs don't show the average examples of these having high levels of ZDDP, when they're perfectly entitled to ramp up the content.

 

[threeputtpar]

To get these vehicles from 30k miles to 1M miles, you will have to drive each one of them 25k miles per year for the next 40 years. Does anyone think that this is a possibility? Do you commute to Argentina every day?

I think you'd be bored of them at the 20 year and/or 300k mile mark, at least so any API SN 5W-20 oil will get you that far.

 

[Ken2]

The author of the "Oil University" article is a plastic surgeon from Florida. He is not a mechanical engineer nor a tribologist. Some of his stuff is good and some is plain wrong.

IT, did you know that oils are actually run in test engines before a new oil standard is adopted? Here is one, the Sequence IV-A test for cam lobe wear (which is more prone to wear than the rod bearings with their hydrodynamic oil wedge):
http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/gastests/ivatest/
The test oil must pass the wear tests with the lowered level of ZDDP, and increased levels of the other chemicals than also provide protection, before the standard is established.

Accurate oil filter ratings are never given to the general public, because they are too difficult for most to understand. You need to know the beta ratios for particles of various sizes. Here's more:
http://www.baldwinfilter.com/TechTips201210.html
http://www.baldwinfilter.com/TechTips201202.html

 

[surfstar]

Originally Posted By: threeputtpar

I think you'd be bored of them at the 20 year and/or 300k mile mark, at least so any API SN 5W-20 oil will get you that far.


x2

Don't fret over the oil or oil filter (did you know Honda says you can go two oil changes on one of those filters!?!).
Worry about that trans.

 

[slug_bug]

IT,
I'm in SE Michigan as well and I'm curious what your prevantative procedure for beating rust is. I can't seem to go more than 8yrs before it starts eating my cars alive.

 

[vinu_neuro]

It's worth noting that newer engines have either moved to roller followers or different tappet surface finishes. Also worth noting that the German OEM oil specs have the most demanding wear specifications. MB 229.5 only calls for a minimum of 500ppm phoshorous, yet the oil manufacturers mostly use around 1000ppm to meet the wear limits. We have VOA's of racing oils like M1, which show tremendous amount of zinc, phosphorous and moly. ZDDP certainly is still widely used in demanding applications where wear is also tightly controlled.

Most newer engines and older run of the mill ones don't need it, but if you have an older one with highly loaded valvetrain or a high-performance one it's not a bad idea to see if there are instances of valvetrain failure with reduced phosphorous levels. Mine is one such example.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: slug_bug
IT,
I'm in SE Michigan as well and I'm curious what your prevantative procedure for beating rust is. I can't seem to go more than 8yrs before it starts eating my cars alive.

I also live in the rust belt and have found a system that works for me (my 17 year old BMW is totally rust free) but it depends on how much you need to drive in the winter.
I work from home so if the roads are wet with salt brine I avoid going out. Even after a major storm, 24 hours later the roads have usually been plowed, salted and now are dry.
If I do have to drive on wet roads (it's the salt spray that's the enemy) I wash the car in a very close by local car wash with under spray before parking in the garage at the end of the day.
If I can't do that, the car stays in the driveway out of the warm garage until it can be cleaned.
This system works for me.

 

[IT_Architect]

Quote:
Quote:
Amsoil Signature has legacy levels of ZDDP, which is why it cannot be certified......

This isn't true.

SM requires under 600 ppm
VOA Amsoil Signature Series 5W20 Jan 23, 2013
PHOSPHORUS 805
ZINC 895
*One Amsoil representative states that they didn't want to sacrifice the wear capabilities, while another states they didn't want to pay for the certification every time they change the formula. However, it looks like that didn't get in their way to get the API SN for their XLT oil.
Quote:
Honda allows the use of 0W-20 in the J35

Good to know. Thanks!
Quote:
A ZDDP additive is very inexpensive compared to Moly, its interesting that there is so much support for MOS2 additive but little for ZDDP around here. Hard to argue with a study from respected professors of tribology?...So yes I have a little inexpensive bottle of ZDDP Max, the cost is such a small insurance.

I've be researching some more and it looks more in more like you are in good company, and it does have advantages for bearings. The Japanese are concerned about timing chain issues without it. The Shelby guys seem to like it with some stating it cut the material in their UOAs in half. Of course my Vues don't generate 750 to 1000 hp either, LOL! It is inexpensive. I may do a VOA with Mobile 1 0W-20 and start there. thanks!
Quote:
To get these vehicles from 30k miles to 1M miles, you will have to drive each one of them 25k miles per year for the next 40 years.
The guy with the 1,688,496.7 mile Honda Accord LX inherited it from his dad, who bought it new in 1991.
I'd better get started.
Quote:
Good luck getting anywhere near 1 million miles if its an Auto trans
Yeah, and sticks are no better. I don't mind fixing them if the rest of the vehicle is solid.

Thanks all. You've been very helpful.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: IT_Architect
Quote:
Quote:
Amsoil Signature has legacy levels of ZDDP, which is why it cannot be certified......

This isn't true.

SM requires under 600 ppm
VOA Amsoil Signature Series 5W20 Jan 23, 2013
PHOSPHORUS 805
ZINC 895
*One Amsoil representative states that they didn't want to sacrifice the wear capabilities, while another states they didn't want to pay for the certification every time they change the formula. However, it looks like that didn't get in their way to get the API SN for their XLT oil.


Actually incorrect. (again, sorry)

API SM and SN is 800 maximum (with a minimum of 600 ppm). 805 ppm is well with the lab margin of a $25 OA.

[URL='http://www.gf-5.com/uploads/File/API%20SN%20Discussion.pdf']www.gf-5.com/uploads/File/API%20SN%20Discussion.pdf[/url]

It is true with Sig series oils they don't want the PAO/ester formulas bound up in the interchange combine.

 

[IT_Architect]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
API SM and SN is 800 maximum (with a minimum of 600 ppm). 805 ppm is well with the lab margin of a $25 OA...It is true with Sig series oils they don't want the PAO/ester formulas bound up in the interchange combine.
I'll take your word for it. Useful link too. I would agree it looks like the most well thought out oil out there. It's too bad they don't have a better way to market it.

Thanks!