Your thoughts on clutch-less gear shifting.

[KrisZ]

Driving my 5spd Focus I often find myself not getting the right RPMs during downshifts. Part of the reason is the throttle response. It is cable driven, but there is a noticeable lag when you blip the throttle. I cleaned it shortly after purchasing the car, it was not that dirty, and it made no difference. Another reason is clutch release delay. I can feel the gear popping in at the right RPM, but by the time I release the clutch, the RPMs drop a bit, making downshifts slightly jerky sometimes.

It happens much less now, as I know the car more, but I thought I should try shifting without a clutch. I know it's routinely done on big rigs.
I find that making downshifts and matching the RPMs is so much easier and smoother. I can simply blip the throttle a bit more than necessary, select the gear I want, put a bit of pressure on the lever and the gear just pops in at the right RPMs.
Upshifting without a clutch is basically the same as with the clutch, but a bit more pressure on the stick has to be used.

My understanding is that there shouldn’t be any extra wear on synchros when this is done right, i.e. no grinding sounds or gears popping out, and it does save the clutch and throw out bearing a lot of wear and tear.

What are your thought on this? Does anyone else on BITOG do this?

 

[dparm]

I have driven stick for over 10 years on several different cars, and never once had to do this.

 

[RiceCake]

Your transmissions have synchros that make up for any difference in speed. They're designed to match the speed of free-wheeling gears, not the entire vehicle at speed. The reason why you can shift a big rig without a clutch is because the transmission gears are huge and heavy duty, the engine has an enormously narrow band of revs, the gears have a very narrow band of ratio change, and usually a fully loaded truck maintains a very consistent speed to rev match.

A car does none of that. You're better off risking a little clutch wear then wearing the transmission and having to replace it.

 

[JHZR2]

Do you understand the principle of double clutching and what it means mechanically???

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Do you understand the principle of double clutching and what it means mechanically???


Yes, but obviously my technique is not good enough yet to make every downshift smooth. But for some reason I can make smoother downshifts without the clutch.

 

[Phishin]

I had a 1997 Chevy S-10 that I drove around for 2 years with no clutch. Probably 30k miles. I bump started it....and shifted it up and down the entire time without a clutch.

I also had a Thunderbird Turbo Coupe (1988) that I shifted regularly without a clutch for several years...just for fun.

I don't own a manual now, but I see no problems with it as long as you're driving non-aggressive and you can do it smoothly.

 

[loyd]

All the time you're waiting for the gears to synchronize with pressure on the synchros, they are wearing. Keep it up and you'll soon have to replace the synchro rings.

 

[bigjl]

You need to work on your throttle control and clutch control not try shifting without the clutch.

I have driven home once after a clutch cable broke and it was certainly not what I would chose to do.

There is almost certainly nothing wrong with your car or clutch, it is purely your technique that needs sorted out.

With practice you might be able to heel and toe.

Not using the clutch in a modern car is recipe for a broken gearbox.

 

[oldhp]

1. I would re-set throttle. Ask mech the steps to do so on your car. On my 12' Ram, You, Key on/engine off...slowly press throttle pedal to floor and let off at same slow speed...key off. Start vehicle and drive the way you always do. I re-set mine at least once a week, it does make it more responsive.
2. Bleed the clutch for air bubbles. If this doesn't work you probably have bad slave cylinder or master cylinder

You shouldn't have to shift car like you describe nor was it built that way.

 

[simple_gifts]

I do clutchess upshifts on my echo only from 3 to 4 and occasionally 1 to 2, where the shifter is basically moved in a linear fashion; the other shifts require 3 linear movements.

Very easy to do on my toyota and there is absolutely no discernable difference from when using the clutch.

This is about as much as I will do.

 

[Spazdog]

I drove my aircooled VW home like that. Start in gear and shift without clutch. I thought the cable had broken but it had just popped out. I had shifted my motorcycles like that for years so I just had to make my right hand do what my left foot had been doing and my right foot do what my right hand had been doing.

I did it a couple of times in the Mustang and a time or two in the Integra. Integra was far and away the easiest car to do it on. Not as a regular practice though.

 

[Roadkingnc]

The trans isnt designed to be shifted with a load on it, you will be repairing it. I have driven many manual shift foci and have never had a problem. Get it checked out, it shouldnt be that way.

 

[Dave Hess]

Just use the clutch as it was designed for.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Roadkingnc
The trans isnt designed to be shifted with a load on it, you will be repairing it. I have driven many manual shift foci and have never had a problem. Get it checked out, it shouldnt be that way.


I never said there is something wrong with the car besides throttle response, which seems to be common complaint with Focus owners. The car is absolutely fine.

But I do want to hear what sorts of effect, if any this might have on the transmission. The only reason I brought it up is that I simply wanted to try it. I did and it was easy and did not seem to be hard on the transmission. That doesn't mean that's the way I will shift gears from now on, but I am curious if it could be done on a regular car. I know that it is routinely done on big rigs, even with synchronizers.

 

[jegs]

Big rig transmissions do not have synchronizers and are designed to be double clutched when shifted. An experienced truck driver can shift one of these without the clutch and not do any harm. Your transmission has synchronizers which will wear out prematurely being shifted the way you describe.

 

[donnyj08]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Roadkingnc
The trans isnt designed to be shifted with a load on it, you will be repairing it. I have driven many manual shift foci and have never had a problem. Get it checked out, it shouldnt be that way.


I never said there is something wrong with the car besides throttle response, which seems to be common complaint with Focus owners. The car is absolutely fine.

But I do want to hear what sorts of effect, if any this might have on the transmission. The only reason I brought it up is that I simply wanted to try it. I did and it was easy and did not seem to be hard on the transmission. That doesn't mean that's the way I will shift gears from now on, but I am curious if it could be done on a regular car. I know that it is routinely done on big rigs, even with synchronizers.


Ford built the car with a clutch, so it is designed to be shifted using the clutch. shifting a car without using the clutch is like trying to eat soup with a fork, its just plain silly.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Your transmissions have synchros that make up for any difference in speed. They're designed to match the speed of free-wheeling gears, not the entire vehicle at speed. The reason why you can shift a big rig without a clutch is because the transmission gears are huge and heavy duty, the engine has an enormously narrow band of revs, the gears have a very narrow band of ratio change, and usually a fully loaded truck maintains a very consistent speed to rev match.

A car does none of that. You're better off risking a little clutch wear then wearing the transmission and having to replace it.


Very well said. While I can do it with my E-150, I don't, the risk outweighs the rewards. OTOH I found Honda Civics and 4 cyl Accords very easy to shift w/o the clutch. In fact when I had them for demo cars the only time I needed the clutch was if I came to a complete stop. Also there is something to be said about a demo car, it wasn't mine so in all honesty I didn't care either.

 

[mechtech2]

Another part of the problem is that when you let off the gas, the engine comes down in RPM slowly [compared to a non computer controlled system].
This makes upshifts unmatched unless you wait.
A technique is to let of the gas a hair sooner before you apply the clutch to shift [upshifts].

Don't shift your trans without the clutch. It is viable and necessary for unsynchronized transmissions [like many trucks], but is no good for a synchro trans.
Sure, it can be done, but it is bad technique.

 

[Shannow]

I've driven that way twice. Once when the clutch linkage failed, and once when I tore my ACL.

Unless you have some sort of emergency, DON'T do it, as previous posters have stated, synchros just aren't designed for accelerating/braking the whole drivetrain.

Bikes and Race cars can do it, as they have dog clutch engagement, where in is in.

 

[Clevy]

I rev match in my mustang. No transmission issues at all. Never a grind and it just floats into gear.
I shifted like that for 100000kms on a t-45. We tore it down because I wanted to change 5th gear and its perfect inside.
Maybe it depends on the transmission.