Y Honda is best engine?

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Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: cchase


I wouldn't call any FWD car "fun to drive", but that's personal.


I'd say that leans more toward "fact" than "opinion."

Oh wait, that's an opinion too...
grin2.gif


Seriously, FWD = practical. RWD = fun. Are there some FWD cars that autocross well? Sure. Neons, Sentra SE-Rs, and a whole bunch of others. But they're not "fun" compared to a RWD where you can steer with the skinny pedal. My story and I'm stickin' to it.


Lets not generalize too much here... rwd is not always better. I suspect if your 440 mopars have anything close to stock suspension and open diffs they might not really steer with the throttle in a "fun" manner, unless driving a 60 ft yacht is fun for you? Sure I'd rather have a balanced responsive rwd car over a fwd given all else equal but those cars aren't really that practical for me.
We have a young guy with 70's mustang with alot of motor work done but nothing else, do our autocross races. He has fun making smoke, and sweet v8 engine noises, but is 10% slower than a well driven base 2001 civic coupe, who is also having fun giving the rest of us fits trying to keep up with him. Both guys are having a blast, but in a different way. I like watching both of them and I wouldn't mind a run in the mustang and a run in the civic, for different reasons though.
I think we can agree though that getting the most out of a car and yourself is fun, whatever wheels are driven, heck they race school buses on ovals, and transport trucks in europe, both which look like fun to me.
19.gif







Anybody there with a Termi?
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: cchase


I wouldn't call any FWD car "fun to drive", but that's personal.


I'd say that leans more toward "fact" than "opinion."

Oh wait, that's an opinion too...
grin2.gif


Seriously, FWD = practical. RWD = fun. Are there some FWD cars that autocross well? Sure. Neons, Sentra SE-Rs, and a whole bunch of others. But they're not "fun" compared to a RWD where you can steer with the skinny pedal. My story and I'm stickin' to it.


Lets not generalize too much here... rwd is not always better. I suspect if your 440 mopars have anything close to stock suspension and open diffs they might not really steer with the throttle in a "fun" manner, unless driving a 60 ft yacht is fun for you? Sure I'd rather have a balanced responsive rwd car over a fwd given all else equal but those cars aren't really that practical for me.
We have a young guy with 70's mustang with alot of motor work done but nothing else, do our autocross races. He has fun making smoke, and sweet v8 engine noises, but is 10% slower than a well driven base 2001 civic coupe, who is also having fun giving the rest of us fits trying to keep up with him. Both guys are having a blast, but in a different way. I like watching both of them and I wouldn't mind a run in the mustang and a run in the civic, for different reasons though.
I think we can agree though that getting the most out of a car and yourself is fun, whatever wheels are driven, heck they race school buses on ovals, and transport trucks in europe, both which look like fun to me.
19.gif







Anybody there with a Termi?

Terminator Mustang? No, just a bullet and a V6 one once in a while.
 
Originally Posted By: hardcore302
I was browsing the posts and someone said that they are fun to drive.

Say it out loud, and listen to yourself, and then lol.

A Corvette or a Lambo is fun to drive, not a Civic.

Reliable? Yes.


Go test Drive an S2000. Definitely a fun vehicle. The old FWD Integra R was also great.
 
Originally Posted By: hardcore302
I was browsing the posts and someone said that they are fun to drive.

Say it out loud, and listen to yourself, and then lol.

A Corvette or a Lambo is fun to drive, not a Civic.

Reliable? Yes.


I understand your point, however one has to realize if most of your driving is on the street, the 2 cars you mentioned wouldn't be the most fun. Neither car would be any fun at all if your spending most of the time within the 2k to 3k rpm range. The Vette doesn't become any fun till the 3k+ and the Lambo even higher, see my point?

A 4 banger stick shift car with sticky tires and maybe lowered an 1" or so can be a blast to drive everyday on the street.. Just my 2 cents!
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
generalize too much here... rwd is not always better. I suspect if your 440 mopars have anything close to stock suspension and open diffs they might not really steer with the throttle in a "fun" manner, unless driving a 60 ft yacht is fun for you?


You're right, RWD isn't always "better," I agree. One of my 440s is bone stock, the other has some tweaks. Both are bucketloads of fun in their own way. Both could have their tails kicked on an autocross course by... well... pretty much any decent FWD made after 1990 and costing over $20k new (and a few cheaper too- like the Neons and Sentras I mentioned before). But frankly, the sheer violence that an over-powered 60s car is capable of is a lot of fun. Its not finesse, but it makes you grin from ear to ear! When RWDs get violent, its fun. When FWD gets violent, its just a handful of torque steer.

But then I've driven finesse cars of both types, too. For example, a 90s Seville STS and a Lincoln MkVIII back when both were new, and I'd pick the MkVIII *any* second over the STS. Both of them handle a lot better than my 60s cars, but I just like the rear-driver better. Same with a BMW 3-series versus a FWD Maxima.



Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Sure I'd rather have a balanced responsive rwd car over a fwd given all else equal but those cars aren't really that practical for me.


There's that "P" word again. For the most part, you're right that it is really hard to beat FWD for all-around compromise of practicality and fun. They handle well enough to keep me from hating them all the time, they are roomier inside, etc. but they just never put that BSEGrin on my face either. Something like a Maxima is about as good as it gets with FWD, but there's another whole world beyond that with RWD.


Originally Posted By: IndyIan

I think we can agree though that getting the most out of a car and yourself is fun, whatever wheels are driven, heck they race school buses on ovals, and transport trucks in europe, both which look like fun to me.
19.gif



This is where I get to admit that I really do like driving a 60-foot yacht.
grin2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan



Terminator Mustang? No, just a bullet and a V6 one once in a while.


Well that sucks, the Termi has the best suspension of the bunch, lol. Factory IRS.
 
Originally Posted By: calvinnnnnnnnn
fwd hondas handle VERY well(not stock of course, [censored] of bodyroll).
the 97-01 acura integra type R is arguably the best handling FWD car in the world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9YmIWXMvjE

civc chasing mustand with almost 2x its horsepower
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG35O89pQrA


That car is a Fox Body. You've obviously never driven one. They were also ~240HP stock. It would have to have a LOT of work done to be over 500HP. Normally forced induction.
 
okay whats your point if i've never driven one?

you're right, i've never driven any ford other than a old early 90's taurus.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: calvinnnnnnnnn
okay whats your point if i've never driven one?

you're right, i've never driven any ford other than a old early 90's taurus.


Fox bodies are not a good car to compare to as any sort of "handling" benchmark, especially with unknown mods. They are probably the BEST straight-line chassis ever made, but for the twisties, the SN95 and S197 chassis are much better stock.

Steeda, Griggs...etc. all MAKE suspension upgrades for fox bodies; I'm in the process of swapping IRS from a 2001 Cobra into mine. But if you HAD driven one, you'd understand what I'm talking about
wink.gif
They have a VERY strong tendency for the rear to lose traction under power (in stock-ish form).
 
Originally Posted By: calvinnnnnnnnn
fwd hondas handle VERY well(not stock of course, [censored] of bodyroll).
the 97-01 acura integra type R is arguably the best handling FWD car in the world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9YmIWXMvjE

civc chasing mustand with almost 2x its horsepower
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG35O89pQrA


I think you'll find your answer to "does RWD or FWD handle better" in Formula 1 and other series such as Le Mans. Count the number of FWD cars in these "handling based" courses.
 
You all are getting way off topic. This thread is not "Fox body vs Civic"

Does Honda make some great world class engines? Yes. More so than many other companies? Yes. The best engines in the world? That's subjective.

And why was the OP so lazy that he couldn't even type out the full word 'why'. I f'in hate "txtspk" (text speak)
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
generalize too much here... rwd is not always better. I suspect if your 440 mopars have anything close to stock suspension and open diffs they might not really steer with the throttle in a "fun" manner, unless driving a 60 ft yacht is fun for you?


You're right, RWD isn't always "better," I agree. One of my 440s is bone stock, the other has some tweaks. Both are bucketloads of fun in their own way. Both could have their tails kicked on an autocross course by... well... pretty much any decent FWD made after 1990 and costing over $20k new (and a few cheaper too- like the Neons and Sentras I mentioned before). But frankly, the sheer violence that an over-powered 60s car is capable of is a lot of fun. Its not finesse, but it makes you grin from ear to ear! When RWDs get violent, its fun. When FWD gets violent, its just a handful of torque steer.

But then I've driven finesse cars of both types, too. For example, a 90s Seville STS and a Lincoln MkVIII back when both were new, and I'd pick the MkVIII *any* second over the STS. Both of them handle a lot better than my 60s cars, but I just like the rear-driver better. Same with a BMW 3-series versus a FWD Maxima.



Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Sure I'd rather have a balanced responsive rwd car over a fwd given all else equal but those cars aren't really that practical for me.


There's that "P" word again. For the most part, you're right that it is really hard to beat FWD for all-around compromise of practicality and fun. They handle well enough to keep me from hating them all the time, they are roomier inside, etc. but they just never put that BSEGrin on my face either. Something like a Maxima is about as good as it gets with FWD, but there's another whole world beyond that with RWD.


Originally Posted By: IndyIan

I think we can agree though that getting the most out of a car and yourself is fun, whatever wheels are driven, heck they race school buses on ovals, and transport trucks in europe, both which look like fun to me.
19.gif



This is where I get to admit that I really do like driving a 60-foot yacht.
grin2.gif





Here's a bunch of clips of a fwd car(an old neon no less) that would produce a BSEGrin on most guys with a pulse. http://www.youtube.com/user/dspautocrosser
Light weight and tight suspension makes a fwd car almost as fun to drive into a corner as a rwd car out of a corner, and I like to get sideways once in a while, as if you can get some of the turning done as your braking you can get on the gas sooner. I find its hard to do consistently for faster times but once in a while it works out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjD5BCnY3BQ This isn't our typical autocross course and its a bit hard to tell (except for one obvious moment) that I've got my car setup too loose for these speeds and my skills... Looks like I'm on ice compared to the Neon above but its still good fun.
 
Another example of "Fact being > Myth", as well as more on-topic would the example of the results gained by RealTime Racing Acura TSX. Both on-point to Honda engines and RWD vs FWD, where the TSX routinely finishes ahead of the BMW and others.

1078.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iBEIBLbK6I

http://www.scca.com/newsarticle.aspx?hub=4&news=3589

Kleinubing Fastest World Challenge Touring Car in Sebring Practice

SEBRING, Fla. (March 18, 2009) – Pierre Kleinubing, of Coconut Creek, Fla., topped the practice sheets for Round One of the SCCA Pro Racing SPEED World Challenge Touring Car Championship at Sebring International Raceway. Kuno Wittmer, of Montreal, Quebec, and Charles Espenlaub, of Lutz, Fla., were second and third quickest, respectively, in preperation for the Toyo Tires World Challenge Season Opener, part of the 57th Annual Mobil 1 12 Hours of Sebring Presented by Fresh From Florida.

Driving the No. 42 Acura/RealTime/Red Line Oil Acura TSX, Kleinubing set his quickest lap, a 2:23.820 (92.615 mph), on his first flying lap around the 17-turn, 3.7-mile road course. The defending race winner picked up nearly two seconds from his morning session time, when the track was still damp from an early morning rain shower.

“It was a little wet in the morning,” Kleinubing said. “I was able to go out this afternoon and do a simulated qualifying run. It worked out that I caught up with Charles [Espenlaub] at the right time and caught a little bit of a draft, which helped me a little bit.

“Hopefully somebody can give me a draft tomorrow for qualifying!”

Though he’s has raced the Acura TSX in World Challenge Touring Car since 2004, Kleinubing now finds himself readjusting to his ride after rule changes for the 2009 season added more weight to the car.

“The car feels pretty good,” Kleinubing said. “It’s a little harder to drive than last year. It’s a little heavier and if you make a mistake, you can tell right away. It’s tough to get away with anything because the car just bogs down. You have to be a little more precise.”

Kleinubing was originally expected to drive the new body style Acura TSX this weekend, but the RealTime squad was unable to complete the car in time for Sebring.

“I’ve done a little testing in the new car,” Kleinubing reported. “I can’t wait to get my hands on the new car and begin working on it full time. But this [old car] is ‘my’ car. This is what I’m familiar with, especially here at Sebring. Last year we came here like five times and did hundreds of laps of testing, so we know the setup with this car.”

Kleinubing’s RealTime teammate Wittmer was second fastest on the day in the No. 44 Acura/RealTime/Red Line Oil Acura TSX. The Canadian improved throughout the 20-minute session, turning his quickest lap of 2:24.124 (92.420 mph) on his final tour of the Sebring circuit.

Driving the No. 73 Mazdaspeed/Stoptech/Racinghart MAZDA6, Espenlaub’s fastest lap of the afternoon practice session clocked in at a 2:24.529 (92.101 mph).

Defending World Challenge Touring Car Champion Peter Cunningham, of Milwaukee, Wis., ended the day fourth on the practice sheets. The RealTime team owner entered a 2:24.673 (92.069 mph) in the No. 1 Acura/RealTime/Red Line Oil Acura TSX, the only 2009 TSX in the RealTime stable at Sebring this week.

Though fastest in the morning session, Jason Saini, of Fort Worth, Texas, did not improve at quite the same pace as his competitors, finishing fifth on the day. Piloting the No. 74 Mazdaspeed/Stoptech/Racinghart MAZDA6, Saini clocked a 2:24.715 (92.043 mph).

Seth Thomas was the fastest of the BMW 328is in sixth. He was followed by Chip Herr and Michael Galati, whose MAZDA6 rides with Tindol Motorsports materialized only days ago. As a result, the pair missed the morning session as they awaited the arrival of the team transporter.

Andrew Aquilante (Subaru Impreza WRX) and James Clay (BMW 328i) completed the top 10. All drivers in the field were able to improve on their morning times thanks to the improved track conditions.

Qualifying for Round One of the SCCA Pro Racing SPEED World Challenge Touring Car Championship, part of the Toyo Tires SCCA World Challenge Season Opener at Sebring, is scheduled for 11:30 a.m. (EDT) on Thursday, March 19. Live timing, lap notes and photo galleries are available at www.world-challenge.com.

SEBRING, Fla. - Combined practice results for Friday’s SCCA Pro Racing SPEED World Challenge GT Championship Toyo Tires Season Opener at Sebring International Raceway, with position, car number in parentheses, driver, hometown, car, fastest lap time, and speed in miles per hour.
1, (42), Pierre Kleinubing, Coconut Creek, Fla., Acura TSX, 2:23.820, 92.615.
2, (44), Kuno Wittmer, Montreal, Quebec, Acura TSX, 2:24.124, 92.420.
3, (73), Charles Espenlaub, Lutz, Fla., MAZDA6, 2:24.529, 92.161.
4, (1), Peter Cunningham, Milwaukee, Wis., Acura TSX, 2:24.673, 92.069.
5, (74), Jason Saini, Ft. Worth, Texas, MAZDA6, 2:24.715, 92.043.
6, (38), Seth Thomas, Cumming, Ga., BMW 328i, 2:24.943, 91.898.
7, (97), Chip Herr, Lititz, Pa., Mazda6, 2:25.189, 91.742.
8, (95), Michael Galati, Olmsted, Ohio, Mazda6, 2:25.481, 91.558.
9, (35), Andrew Aquilante, Phoenixville, Pa., Subaru WRX, 2:25.492, 91.551.
10, (36), James Clay, Blacksburg, Va., BMW 328i, 2:25.641, 91.457.
11, (75), Eric Foss(R), Fort Worth, Texas, MAZDA6, 2:25.819, 91.346.
12, (34), Nick Esayian, San Diego, Calif., BMW 328i, 2:26.459, 90.947.
13, (43), Toby Grahovec, Chicago, Ill., Acura TSX, 2:27.722, 90.169.
14, (24), Jim Osborn, Ooltewah, Tenn., Volkswagen Jetta TDI, no time.
 
I wouldn't say they're the best because I don't think anyone can back that claim with any hard data for ANY make, but I certainly think their among the best, and for anyone who disagrees I'd like to hear why....
 
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