WS VS T-IV Real world observation

[bikeshopguy345]

I recently did an ATF drain and fill on my 2011 Sienna which has about 150K miles on it. It still had the factory fill of WS. Only about 2 quarts came out, even after taking out the plastic tube in the pan. The drained fluid was almost completely black, and although it didn't smell burnt, it didn't smell great. I refilled with 2 quarts of Valvoline Maxlife. The transmission was working perfectly before the drain and fill and still is after. I plan on doing ATF drain and fills with my 10K oil changes for a while and see if the color starts to change. Removing that small of an amount will likely not make much of a difference but everything works and I'm not really trying to be "aggressive" with it.

I also recently did an ATF drain and fill on my 2004 Tundra which has about 150k miles on it and has seen occasional light to medium towing most of its life. It still had the factory fill of T-IV. 4 quarts came out and the fluid looked incredibly clean. It smelled like new fluid. It was only ever so slightly darker than the new fluid. I refilled with 2 quarts of T-IV and the leftover 2 quarts of Maxlife from the Sienna. No motive to mixing in Maxlife, just using what I had left on hand. The transmission was working perfectly before the drain and fill and still is now. I'm not sure I'll get in much of a hurry to do it again on the Tundra.

While I know this is only observational, I do find it interesting. The T-IV transmission fluid from my 15 year old truck that I tow with looked brand new and the WS fluid from the 8 year old van looked black. I know it is only looks and hard conclusions probably cannot be made. It just makes me wonder why? I would have thought it would have been the other way around.

The ATF dipstick on my Tundra says "may never need changing under normal driving conditions." After what I saw, they might be right. Not so sure on the Sienna though!

 

[clinebarger]

FWD Transaxles are inherently harder on ATF because the built-in differential, Heavier/Bulkier FWD vehicles such as a Sienna even more so. Black fluid at 150K in a hot climate isn't surprising.

 

[BlakeB]

The factory fill WS on my 07 Tacoma (A750F) was black at 51k miles when I did my first drain and fill on it. I did a cooler line flush at 60k with WS. Four years later at 80K I drained the pan and the fluid looked brand new despite some hard towing and pushing the trans temps to well over 200°F several times. I refilled the pan with Maxlife that time because that's what I had available at the time and it's highly recommended by the guys that use it on tacomaworld.com. The nearest Toyota dealer is 30 minutes away and wants $9/quart for WS.
I'm not sure why the factory fill got so dark so quick, but the Toyota WS that I got at the dealership to replace it with at 60k seemed to be holding up better that what it came from the factory with (reformulated or different supplier maybe?).
I traded the Tacoma in with 87k miles so I don't know what the WS/Maxlife mix will come out of there looking like but the trans was shifting perfect with it in there. Any subsequent drain/fills would have been with Maxlife from that point forward. It's cheap and readily available. There are guys on TW that have been using it with good results for more than 150k miles in their Tacoma's with a cooler line flush every 50k miles. That's good enough for me, if it was going to cause issues in these units it would have done so before now I think. Plus with the number of members we have there using it, if there were any issues at all with Maxlife in the A750 you'd be reading about it.

I will note that there were some issues with some Tacoma's shipping low on trans fluid from the factory, perhaps mine was one of the ones that did. I'll never know because I didn't measure how much came out of the trans, I just drained it and refilled with what it calls for (3.2 quarts, allow slightly more to perform temp check procedure) then check the level with the temp check mode. I don't get people that measure the fluid and then just put back the amount they drained out... who says the level was right before you drained it? I prefer to do the temp check procedure every time and know it's right.

Side note, I have an Ultragauge set up to monitor trans temps and actually prefer the temp check method over having a dipstick. When you have the trans temps displayed in front of you it's really easy to check the fluid level in the Tacoma's, jumping pins/wires and doing the series of shifts is annoying but it's not hard.
I think it's a fantastic system and actually really hate pulling a trans dipstick now. If you had a leaky trans I can see where a dipstick would be preferred, but in a leak-free trans I think the temp check method is fantastic.

Maybe the factory Toyota fluid is like Fords Mercon LV and gets dark fast, Ford even put out out a bulletin stating that fluid darkening quickly was normal and that fluid color was not an indicator of fluid condition. Maybe the dye just breaks down fast? Who really knows, Toyota generally has pretty good transmissions that will live a pretty long life on anything kind of decent ATF that is recommended for or meets the spec they call for.

There's a guy on Tacomaworld that had over 300k on his 2005 A750 on the factory fill. The truck was flooded and totaled in 2017 with 330K on it with no issues. In his case the fluid and trans did indeed last the life of the vehicle. 330k on a trans with regular fluid changes is impressive, but to have had no maintenance at all and made it that far is astounding, it would have been cool to see how far it would have gone on the factory fluid.

Toyota says they're filled with a "lifetime" fluid that should not need changing under normal service. The 2nd Gen Tacoma's originally called for a transmission fluid change at 100k under severe service but they have since reduced it to 60k for severe service.

 

[Jstew]

I too have a vehihicle running T-IV (2003 Pontiac Vibe AWD), and WS (2008 Sienna AWD). I would say my observations have been somewhat opposite -

The Vibes fluid was dark and burnt by 80K and was changed with authentic WS, now at 150K and needing changed again.

I changed the Siennas fliud at 70K, much better condition IMHO. I just changed it again at 140K,10K miles ago, (still appeared in decent condition), with AMSOIL OE Fuel Efficient (compatible with WS), and transmission has been working great. I was tired of paying the dealers prices - the guy in the pats department that used to cut me a deal left.

When I say "changed", I do a complete exchange using the vehicles transmission pump, disconnecting cooler lines, and a premeasured reservoir. I have not changed the filters, yet.

So maybe mostly dependant on application, temps, size of trans and fluid capicity, weight of vehicle, etc.........

 

[LeakySeals]

03 Camry running T-IV. That car never had dark fluid with just pan drops. Was clean when the engine grenaded at 345k. Also have a 2012 Sienna in the family 120k. Black. Maybe that's just the way the fluid is?

You said only 2 quarts came out with the fill level tube out? The AWD is 7.1 total capacity. So that's about 1/3. Pan drain and fills are too much work and too little reward especially on that Sienna. These days I perform cooler line exchanges on every vehicle I work on, so there must be a way on the Sienna. That way get it all, not blending old, new, different viscosity, brand, etc.

 

[Leo99]

Originally Posted by Jstew
I too have a vehihicle running T-IV (2003 Pontiac Vibe AWD), and WS (2008 Sienna AWD). I would say my observations have been somewhat opposite -

The Vibes fluid was dark and burnt by 80K and was changed with authentic WS, now at 150K and needing changed again.

I changed the Siennas fliud at 70K, much better condition IMHO. I just changed it again at 140K,10K miles ago, (still appeared in decent condition), with AMSOIL OE Fuel Efficient (compatible with WS), and transmission has been working great. I was tired of paying the dealers prices - the guy in the pats department that used to cut me a deal left.

When I say "changed", I do a complete exchange using the vehicles transmission pump, disconnecting cooler lines, and a premeasured reservoir. I have not changed the filters, yet.

So maybe mostly dependant on application, temps, size of trans and fluid capicity, weight of vehicle, etc.........


Unless you ran it to failure, you don't know the limit of T-IV.

I've exchanged 3 quarts (2 quarts at 200k miles and 1 quart at 265k miles) in my Rav4 and the tranny whines. It's been whining for the past 200k miles. It whined worse after I exchanged a quart of fluid at 265k miles so it's on its own now.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I am about to service our 2013 GS350. I will start cold and drain the fluid and fill the same amount.
I will run the engine for 20 seconds (no more) to pump the fluid outta the pan into the transmission.
Then repeat the drain and fill 2 or 3 times.
On the final iteration, I will fill just a little more fluid and let the transmission warm to 104* (gotta check proper temperature).
Then do the straw drain procedure to set proper level.

Anyways that's my plan.
No WS for me; gonna use Idemitsu WS equivalent.
I will service the differential st the same time.

 

[bikeshopguy345]

Originally Posted by BlakeB


I will note that there were some issues with some Tacoma's shipping low on trans fluid from the factory, perhaps mine was one of the ones that did. I'll never know because I didn't measure how much came out of the trans, I just drained it and refilled with what it calls for (3.2 quarts, allow slightly more to perform temp check procedure) then check the level with the temp check mode. I don't get people that measure the fluid and then just put back the amount they drained out... who says the level was right before you drained it? I prefer to do the temp check procedure every time and know it's right.



I agree with you that the temp check method is the best way, but I didn't have the tools or take the time to do it. I let the van sit overnight in the carport and the jug of Maxlife sat out there with it.

It was in the high 40's the day I did the drain and fill. I found it interesting that when I pulled the drain plug, I did have a pretty good amount of fluid come out before I pulled the plastic straw. I thought the straw was "calibrated" for 113F? The van was perfectly level. Maybe it was overfilled? Either way, it worked fine for 150K and is still working fine for about 5K now since I did it.

 

[BlakeB]

Originally Posted by bikeshopguy345
Originally Posted by BlakeB


I will note that there were some issues with some Tacoma's shipping low on trans fluid from the factory, perhaps mine was one of the ones that did. I'll never know because I didn't measure how much came out of the trans, I just drained it and refilled with what it calls for (3.2 quarts, allow slightly more to perform temp check procedure) then check the level with the temp check mode. I don't get people that measure the fluid and then just put back the amount they drained out... who says the level was right before you drained it? I prefer to do the temp check procedure every time and know it's right.



I agree with you that the temp check method is the best way, but I didn't have the tools or take the time to do it. I let the van sit overnight in the carport and the jug of Maxlife sat out there with it.

It was in the high 40's the day I did the drain and fill. I found it interesting that when I pulled the drain plug, I did have a pretty good amount of fluid come out before I pulled the plastic straw. I thought the straw was "calibrated" for 113F? The van was perfectly level. Maybe it was overfilled? Either way, it worked fine for 150K and is still working fine for about 5K now since I did it.

I've never serviced a Sienna, but on the Tacoma's you have two plugs, a drain plug and a check plug. The straw is built into the pan and can't be removed. There is a temperature check range, the first information I saw on the Tacoma's stated to pull the check plug at 115-130°F. Later I got ahold of a factory manual for a newer truck than mine and it gave a temp range of 97-115°. I put my truck into temp check mode and then plugged my Ultragauge in to see what temps the lights came on at, my 07 checked at 97-115°F just like the information for the 2012 Tacoma I had looked at stated.

You will get a lot of fluid out of the check hole if you pull the check plug without the vehicle running, when you shut the vehicle off the fluid drains down into the pan, giving you an artificially high fluid level, that's why almost all automatic transmissions are checked with the vehicle running and in park or neutral depending on make or model, and at a specific temperature or temperature range (fluid expands as it gets warmer). Also don't forget to cycle the trans through the gears a few times prior to checking the level to circulate the fluid and fill all the passages in the valve body, failing to do so will throw your fluid level off too.

 

[bikeshopguy345]

Originally Posted by clinebarger
FWD Transaxles are inherently harder on ATF because the built-in differential, Heavier/Bulkier FWD vehicles such as a Sienna even more so. Black fluid at 150K in a hot climate isn't surprising.


Excellent point on FWD transaxles and one I haven't considered before. Makes sense.



[/quote]

You will get a lot of fluid out of the check hole if you pull the check plug without the vehicle running, when you shut the vehicle off the fluid drains down into the pan, giving you an artificially high fluid level, that's why almost all automatic transmissions are checked with the vehicle running and in park or neutral depending on make or model, and at a specific temperature or temperature range (fluid expands as it gets warmer). Also don't forget to cycle the trans through the gears a few times prior to checking the level to circulate the fluid and fill all the passages in the valve body, failing to do so will throw your fluid level off too.
[/quote]


That also makes sense, and was something I had not considered. Good info, appreciate it.

I recently added Lubegard Power Steering Fluid Protectant after changing the steering rack on the Tundra. I used Maxlife ATF for the power steering fluid. After the change I had a slight whine and noticed some debris in spite of doing a flush. Added Lubegard and Magnefine Filter. All is well now.

I am very intrigued by Lubegard Red for the transmission on both vehicles. I have read numerous posts/threads, but I can't make up my mind. What do y'all think?

 

[MolaKule]

While the fluid may not look black in some cases, long drain intervals keep a lot of particulate matter suspended in the fluid which you may not be able to see except under a microscope.

For a two-quart sump, I would do at least a few more D&F's.

The best thing I have ever done for my vehicles, in my opinion, is have aftermarket sump pans replaced with pans that have a bit more capacity and with drain plugs.

 

[nthach]

When I drained the OEM fill WS from my parent's LS430, it was purple with 12 years and barely 50K on the fluid. It was pitch black at 30K on a Prius. Early WS made by one of the Japanese oil companies was hygroscopic.

The new and current XOM fill doesn't seem to discolor as fast when the container is open. When I did a D/F of my hybrid unit at 155K, it was actually cleaner than I expected it.

 

[MaximaGuy]

Originally Posted by bikeshopguy345

While I know this is only observational, I do find it interesting. The T-IV transmission fluid from my 15 year old truck that I tow with looked brand new and the WS fluid from the 8 year old van looked black. I know it is only looks and hard conclusions probably cannot be made. It just makes me wonder why? I would have thought it would have been the other way around.


The Sienna and Oddessy are front heavy vans and they can darken any fluid in no time. They are truly massive (may be the heaviest) FWD vehicles in the market.

 

[HangFire]

I do a Low Performance Paper Chromatography test on dark ATF using a white paper towel and a bright light. Often I see bright red separate from dark particulate. That's good and I start the fluid replacement regimen.

If no red, it is either burnt or one of those atf's that loses color. Smell can be deceptive too. I compare to new, but MaxLife smells sulphorous even when new, which is similar to a burnt smell, so it helps to know what is already in there.