Would MMO interfere with MoS2 plating?

[ueberooo]

Would you expect MMO or mineral oil spirit with solvent properties to interfere with MoS2 plating? That is, would you think it might "clean" the engine too much and undo MoS2 plating on the metal??

I'm thinking of adding a few oz of MMO to my oil; so little I probably needn't worry about the above. Still I wonder if in general the above would be a legit concern?

 

[demarpaint]

I had the same question and asked the Lubro Moly people. Their answer was no, you can use both at the same time. Funny thing is this, sometimes you can ask the same question twice and get two different answers, depending on who you ask. I only asked once. I would fire off an email to them, as well as Rick Kelly over at Turtle Wax makers of MMO as and ask there too.

 

[Spyder7]

mos2 is supposed to be additive neutral. I added it and MMO together on my previous OCI (not at the same time but during the same OCI) and, subjectively, I noticed the same results other mos2 users described. So from my experience, it doesn't seem to inhibit it.

-Spyder

 

[rclint]

Mos2 will not be affected by MMO, as a matter of fact you could use MMO as a carrier for mos2.. now the question to ask is if mos2 can actually be of benefit inside an oil sump engine...

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: rclint
Mos2 will not be affected by MMO, as a matter of fact you could use MMO as a carrier for mos2.. now the question to ask is if mos2 can actually be of benefit inside an oil sump engine...


Its been asked and discussed in two lengthy threads on it. One here, one in the VOA forum.

Objectively, no definitive answer is possible because none of us have the means to do the required testing. Many anecdotal accounts of experience with it exist in both threads, so the only thing that can be decided is whether its worth the $4 it costs to try it.

To me, the answer was yes, and I plan to continue using it in future OCIs. Others have to make up their own minds on that one and decide for themselves.

-Spyder

 

[mechtech2]

So it seems to be safe to do so.
But it makes sense to me that any MMO would reduce the bond or the quantity of the moly on the parts.
I would only use MMO for special cleaning, not regular use in the crankcase.

 

[bigmike]

So far, nobody has stated how strong the bond between moly and [insert metal here] actually is. All we know is moly has an affinity for metal.

I've asked the question and attempted to research (to no avail) how strong mos2 is to different types of metals (iron, aluminum, etc.).

I speculate that moly has a stronger bond with iron, but that's just speculation.

Once this topic has been addressed, then POSSIBLY we can give a better answer to if and how MMO will affect the different bonding/binding strengths of the mos2. Perhaps MMO affects the sulfur in some manner as well, which would reduce the ability of mos2 from layering.

Until then, who knows?

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: bigmike
So far, nobody has stated how strong the bond between moly and [insert metal here] actually is. All we know is moly has an affinity for metal.

I've asked the question and attempted to research (to no avail) how strong mos2 is to different types of metals (iron, aluminum, etc.).

I speculate that moly has a stronger bond with iron, but that's just speculation.

Once this topic has been addressed, then POSSIBLY we can give a better answer to if and how MMO will affect the different bonding/binding strengths of the mos2. Perhaps MMO affects the sulfur in some manner as well, which would reduce the ability of mos2 from layering.

Until then, who knows?


As neither is a product that needs to be used every OCI to be effective, if one prefers to use both but not during the same OCI, this is easily accomplished.

Assuming, for arguement's sake, that the person does two OCIs per year. I would just use MMO in the winter OCI, then just mos2 in the spring OCI. Mos2 will still remain when the next winter OCI comes and its skipped.

Adding mos2 every other oil change instead of every oil change was discussed in both threads mentioned, and the consensus seemed to be that this too is an acceptable and effective method of using it.

You can have your cake and eat it too with this, it just requires a little thought and creativity. If zMAX delivers what I'm hoping it will, then I will be looking at some kind of similarly creative solution that'll allow me to continue using it as recommended, but also introduce the other additives somehow that I skipped this OCI so as to just test zMAX.

-Spyder

 

[rclint]

I have worked with mos2 extensively in my field of work (machinery, textiles, etc.. and hobby firearms) mos2 is an odd substance... it acts like a metal yet is chemically inert (this is if my memory serves me correct it's been a long time). I have used 99% alcohol, a clear oil which I can't remember exactly what it was ( I think mineral oil) for carriers.. the reason mos2 is not affected is because it being chemically inert... do some research on mos2, but still my stance is in an internal combustion engine with a oil sump of such huge quantity to the amount of mos2 added just does not give the best environment for mos2... and that's a good thing because mos2 WILL build upon itself if the friction on the parts affected are not extreme enough... so in the engine the manufactures have already reduced the friction points enough so that with even conventional oils ( this is not a slam against conventional oil) I would venture to say subpar could be used and you would see no appreciable difference.. With the use of synthetics all that is gained is longer drain intervals.. not less wear in an engine, so this with my past experience with mos2 does not give any advantages to a internal combustion engine with an oil sump.

Now please don't take this as me kicking you in the knees about mos2, but do some research on mos2, and if you want to get into some good reading, and what will work with your internal combustion engine with a oi sump look into organic molly

 

[rclint]

As far as mos2 "bonding" for lack of better word" it bonds at the molecular level, very close to an alloy. I have worked with aluminum, steel, and even ceramic. The problem is the mos2 keeps building on top of itself, and there is no way to remove this build up...

Mos2 works much better in a dry environment, an d you have to use a controlled environment as mentioned above the mos2 will build upon itself causing out of tolerance parts, and actually increase friction. Again the hot oil sump in which there is very low mos2 to surface area. I went in depth in this in a post a couple months ago, if you search back you can find more info on this subject. If your really interested in this area look at organic molly which is a very close match to a oil sump internal combustion engine. Mos2 works much better in a dry lube environment from my experience, yet you must be very vigilant in the amount of mos2 to prevent the build up causing more friction than no mos2 to begin with or compared to just a oil lubed friction point.

 

[Spyder7]

The typical amount of moly desired is on the order of 6-800 ppm, which also the amount VOAs indicate Redline has. A VOA on the 300 ml bottle that mos2 comes in showing the amount present in the bottle, and then calculated across different sump sizes showed that in a 4 quart sump, half a bottle would deliver the desired 6-800 ppm moly count.

That was discussed in the VOA thread on it, at length. I consider 6-800 ppm optimal, with no more desired, so when I used mos2, I added just half the bottle to my 4 quart sump.

I have researched it, and with the very low levels of moly found in most API SM oils, decided that a 6-800 ppm moly count (similar to what's in Redline, again) was what I desired.

Many of the oils out now will likely be reformulated or tweaked to meet the API SN spec, and the base amount of moly may change. I have a few different kinds of API SM oil to use yet, where the quantity of moly is known, and will continue adding it to those oils as I use them up. For the newer API SN oils, I won't be adding any mos2 until there's enough data out to show what's already in the add pack, since I don't like to put something in without knowing what the resultant product will contain.

I do know the Pennzoil conventional contains more moly than the old formula, and with the tendency of some moly particles from mos2 to linger across subsequent oil changes, was content to skip it this time while using the new Pennzoil conventional.

Until my stash of API SM oils are empty, I'll probably alternate adding it by using an SM oil with mos2 added, then an SN oil with no mos2, then an SM again with mos2, etc. There should be lots of data out on these new SN oils long before I've emptied my stash of SM.

-Spyder

 

[bigmike]

Originally Posted By: rclint
As far as mos2 "bonding" for lack of better word" it bonds at the molecular level, very close to an alloy. I have worked with aluminum, steel, and even ceramic. The problem is the mos2 keeps building on top of itself, and there is no way to remove this build up...



The sulfur molecules don't break down and burn off? Wouldn't that eventually lead towards the layering being eliminated or am I chemically looking at this wrong?

 

[ueberooo]

Hey, thanks everybody for your thoughts. I think I'm only going to use a tiny tiny bit of MMO, and wait till I get a little past half the miles on the oil OCI.

4 oz of MMO at 2500 miles, running this winter oil to 4500 mi around March. I'll also add half to 2/3 oz of Lucas break in for an extra ZDDP boost.

 

[rclint]

The environment of the oil sump makes it a challenege to say the least for mos2 to interact with the metal surfaces, and friction points.

I'm pretty sure Redline does not use mos2, I'm speaking out of pure ignorance here, however from my understanding oil companies etc use an organic molly ( I think I have the term correct, as I said you need to research maybe it's inorganic molly I didn't work much with this type of molly) the organic molly has many more benefits when used in a oil sump, and one of it's better qualities is having a carrier such as the low temp oil oil, and also the mild friction combined with the carrier (oil) for organic molly.

Mos2 on the other hand works better in a more direct point of contact for lack of better word... such as a cast iron bushing with a steel shaft mos2 would be great, but put that shaft in a 1 gallon oil sump, and add the option of pressurized lube (which would not make much difference on the effectiveness still noteworthy) and mos2 becomes much less effective. and 95% or more maybe all of the mos2 will just settle to the sump, or stay in the carried... yet mos2 ability to reduce friction becomes effective when it's bonded to the substrate again which is hard to do when you have a constant oil splash/submersion.

 

[rclint]

Here is a good link explaining the mos2 film, formation, description, etc etc. Please search these ideas out, I'm not for or against anyone coming up with ideas on how to make the wheel better... but please research what is going on so that you are informed, and can make a wise decision, which is the reason for my post even though it may seem contrary to the question, and information posted here it does give another perspective. I have worked with many types of dry lubricants, so called nanolubes etc. You will have advantages, and drawbacks when trying to reduce friction in a wet sump, oil bath etc. What you have to decide is if the product really offers any advantage, if so if it's worth the money in that it will extend lifespan, reduce friction/improve economy, and of course any dreaded drawbacks like buildup on parts, cost verses return, and of course altering a specific lubricant that may cause competition within the lubricant !! Also mos2 can become corrosive in a sense that it can absorb moisture ( I'm thinking all my info is correct please research) when absorbing moisture it causes rusting, pitting etc which I will say in a oil sump it's not so much a problem, however it could be in certain areas. Also you really don't want your mos2 you added to your sump to end up sitting in the bottom making a layer on the oil pan.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/cm00041a010

I hope I have sparked some more interest in just how mos2 works, and also just what type of molly/moly is being used in oils.. enjoy your tinkering, and I hope someone extracts 70% more miles per gallon in some way.. then send me the booty.

 

[mechtech2]

MoS2 sticks to metal because of the sulfur in it.
This is a very good bond.
The moly goes along for the ride.

 

[Spyder7]

I consider mos2 from the POV of what they put on the bottle: its a friction reducing agent and a good anti-wear additive. With its modest price, ease of use, and that most OTC oils contain little to no moly (at least the SM stuff, not enough data on the SN oils to comment, though I doubt they've changed that much in this regard), its a very useful additive and one I will continue using as an AW agent, and as part of my overall maintenance plan aimed at maximizing engine life while minimizing potential problems downstream.

While I lack lab facilities to evaluate exactly what does how much of what, I will say that the few additives I've used and believe in, along with a little elbow grease to address the things requiring it, has considerably turned the clock back on my Corolla over the 14,000 km I have owned it - the engine sounds much quieter, feels smoother, and is much more throttle responsive than when I first bought it.

-Spyder

 

[Loobed]

My thoughts: Any MOS2 that is removed by MMO would be deposited right back on the metal a few seconds later in another spot. Most of the MOS2 that comes standard in a modern engine oils is still there after going 5000 miles in the engine. I doubt the MMO would dilute the PPM that much. MMO might reduce the MOS2 ppm if it removed sludge and the MOS2 coated the sludge instead of the metal parts. I don't see any reason to mix MMO with MOS2.

 

[edhackett]

Quote:
Most of the MOS2 that comes standard in a modern engine oils is still there after going 5000 miles in the engine.


Modern, fully formulated motor oil does not contain MoS2. They use molybdenum dithiocarbamate and/or dithiophosphate, soluble organic forms, analogous to ZZDP. You can not infer that MoS2 has the same effect.

Ed

 

[rclint]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Quote:
Most of the MOS2 that comes standard in a modern engine oils is still there after going 5000 miles in the engine.


Modern, fully formulated motor oil does not contain MoS2. They use molybdenum dithiocarbamate and/or dithiophosphate, soluble organic forms, analogous to ZZDP. You can not infer that MoS2 has the same effect.

Ed


Thank you, I mentioned it several times before, and I'm not sure many people understand what a huge difference there is between mos2, and organic moly