Would Companies treat people right without Unions?

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Unions accomplished exactly what the Communists couldn't do....

destroy our great nation.



The colonists unionized and fought the King, prevailed, to form a country by and for the people the USA. Unions broke up communism, like in Poland. Unions are the opposite of communism from what I have seen. It is people getting together and protesting what they see wrong, in a place where they are free to do so. I would have to respectfully disagree with your comment.

I have worked in a union job while young, then as a non union exempt employee later, same place, same job. The very union that I supported came after me for nonsense an employee made up about me. I told him one time he can't be on the phone 2 out of every 4 hours on the job, which he was, even more. I was being nice. They put posters of me up, saying I won't let this poor inocent "worker" use the phone. My mother and sister were both dying of cancer at the time. I almost couldn't handle it. The union leader was so into seeing every manager as the devil he was blind with rage with it. He was a pig. Believe me I hated unions at that time.

But that is a story of individuals, not the concept. Or maybe I am missing some point about the formation of the USA.

Maye you we talking about something a little different.

I actually ended up having to fire the guy, fighting the union, and all the union people who were friends before totally hated me after that. Everyone believed the guy who said he was hardly ever on the phone and just needed to call his wife once in a while. He wouldn't change, he was got even worse. I actually left the job, an excellent job, and took early retirement mainly because of the tension every day at work. Because I said please try not to be on the phone 2 of 4 hours at work to someone. He wouldn't change, he was trading stocks is what the calls were for, as I could hear it all.

So maybe that is what you are referring to.

 

[dwendt44]

While I'm sure there were abuses in the past, and when pressed to name one corrupt union, the Teamsters is the only one any critic can come up with. That mess has largely been corrected.

Corrupt members in leadership positions? Well, I've known unions turn those in all by themselves and right wing pols in the labor dept. a few years ago still criticized that union.(hypocrites)

No union or union contract keeps incompetent or crooked workers employed. It's the lazy company heads that aren't making the effort to fire that employee. Seen it many times.

Many companies would treat their employees fairly, but some would not.

Even companies with a union hire anti-union consultants that result on three pay level contracts; end to retirement benefits; pay cuts, high deductions for health insurance; etc....the list goes on.
So if unions magically disappeared tomorrow, some companies would quickly find ways to undo all the progress their workers managed to acquire.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Tempest

Public sector unions, and the corruption they bring, are one of the largest problems in this country.

This

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Unions accomplished exactly what the Communists couldn't do....
destroy our great nation.

And this. Although they have lots of help from our Government and Lawyers.

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
"Would Companies treat people right without Unions?"

The bias of this question is too funny. The question to ask is, if government is the "answer" and only has the people's interest at heart, why do we have or need public sector unions??

Public sector unions, and the corruption they bring, are one of the largest problems in this country.

Well said!

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
"Would Companies treat people right without Unions?"

The bias of this question is too funny. The question to ask is, if government is the "answer" and only has the people's interest at heart, why do we have or need public sector unions??

Public sector unions, and the corruption they bring, are one of the largest problems in this country.


I think the question had nothing to do with government, until you brought it in yourself. Government also was rife with scandal in the 1800s with political machines hiring insiders before unions really hit it big.

Since government is nonprofit, it has different motives than businesses. I will agree that private and public sector unions have the same goals for their clients. How effective they are has to do with who's sitting across from them at the bargaining table... and we should not fault the union for its competence.

 

[65cuda]

My main objection to unions is that they have become big business. They aren't worried as much about the members as they are about their own power and paycheck. Also unions will protect those that are shown to be problem workers. To me the union needs to verify a complaint to make sure that it is valid. Then they should go with the company to the person and both tell them that they are done. Thinking that the gov has safety regulations that are enforced is a joke. The unions do more at the floor level to make sure that safety issues are followed that OSHA does. Remember the mining disasters? The gov wasn't able to stop them from not following the rules. Which shows two things. Companies can be more worried about their money than the employees and the gov isn't very good at enforcing the regulations. Idealy companies would be concerned about the employees and try to give them wages and benefits that will keep them there. My experience is though that advancing is usually a product of family/buddy plan instead of merits in non union companies.

 

[ZZman]

Unions helped the vast majority in the middle make a decent living.

For those in high demand or highly skilled jobs there probably is no need for unions.

For the poor or uneducated you can find a thousand people to fill the job so they are just screwed I guess.

Did unions sometimes get carried away...sure.

But they did and do help make sure the employer doesn't always get their way and screw over the employee. (Some employers do and some don't) They also help protect employees from unjust firing.

If you look at the decline in unions you also see a rise in the rich 1%

 

[FL_Rob]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Unions accomplished exactly what the Communists couldn't do....

destroy our great nation.

Communists are still at it ...in different forms.

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: ZZman
We all know that unions helped get people better compensation and work conditions.

Are they outdated?

Do you think modern day companies and corporations would treat their employees any better today than they did back then if they could help it?

I have a feeling with the global economy it might be worse.


During my time in management I've seen pros and cons as the bulk of my department was unionized, while we also ran two separate non-union operations out of the same department (this was a management headache in itself that was greater than any union related issue I ever dealt with).

One of the non-union operations was simply our company bread and butter that was implemented under a different name. We paid them less than their non-unionized counterparts because we could. They also didn't have the opt-in benefits option that our unionized employees could choose if they wanted it.

On the con sign, I saw the union side with a more senior employee against another employee based solely on his seniority and personal relationship with their shop steward. This same senior employee was also my biggest headache (due to his incompetence and poor work ethic) and one that could have been eliminated more easily if the union hadn't fought tooth and nail to protect him. I saw other examples of the union taking selective interest based on the preferences of the shop stewards.

They paid their union dues, received some benefits they would not have gotten were it not for those unions (our biggest competitor ran a non-union business and could more easily undercut us as he didn't pay his employees what we paid ours in salary and benefits), but in the end it was a very mixed bag in terms of costs to them (from being undercut by our main competitor and his non-union shop) that limited our growth potential and saw the universal worker protection ideology being far more selectively implemented then they realized it was.

That's the major problem with a union: unless the business its in has a monopoly or all players are union shops, its very difficult for a unionized company to compete with one that isn't.

The other is they tend to place too much emphasis on seniority. In every organization I've worked in with a union, both as employee in some cases, management in others, seniority was the primary (often meaning sole) criteria used in promotion or transfer to non-management positions. Qualifications and performance were secondary.

I'm giving you the real, experienced based view rather than my ideological one that recognizes how we owe the things we take for granted to the efforts of organized labor. The clash between the two exists because I believe those who fought so hard to attain it, never envisioned its modern day implementation occurring.

As an ideal, I still favor it. As a reality, its too much of a mixed bag to give an easy answer to.

-Spyder

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: Tempest
"Would Companies treat people right without Unions?"

The bias of this question is too funny. The question to ask is, if government is the "answer" and only has the people's interest at heart, why do we have or need public sector unions??

Public sector unions, and the corruption they bring, are one of the largest problems in this country.


I think the question had nothing to do with government, until you brought it in yourself. Government also was rife with scandal in the 1800s with political machines hiring insiders before unions really hit it big.

Since government is nonprofit, it has different motives than businesses. I will agree that private and public sector unions have the same goals for their clients. How effective they are has to do with who's sitting across from them at the bargaining table... and we should not fault the union for its competence.
I believe Government is the largest employer of unionized employees. Its fair and applicable to bring it into the conversation.

 

[eljefino]

The question is would companies...

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
The question is would companies...

Cannot have one with out the other.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Unions accomplished exactly what the Communists couldn't do....

destroy our great nation.




Hyperbole much?

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Unions accomplished exactly what the Communists couldn't do....

destroy our great nation.




Hyperbole much?
Not that much of an exaggeration if you think about it.

 

[Cutehumor]

nurses are not allowed to unionized in the nashville area. if a hospital finds out if a nurse is trying to start a union, that nurse is fired.

 

[andyd]

Channeling John Wayne in McClintock. I won't, I won't. The blank I won't. You young'uns just dont know. You are mostly in jobs that have you doing easy indoor work in buildings that were built by people who were trying to make or save money. Yah, you're right, that union leaders now-a-days, are doing very well by their positions. But, wabbout the minesr who were killed in a mine whose ownership received hand slap fines for safety violations. OSHA and MSHA inspectors are very thin. Unions promote safe work procedures. Regardless, a 3000 worker shipyard had on average an accidental death a year in the 11 yrs I worked there. Construction jobs are dangerous. When then the Union went out on strike in '77. The GM's son pulled a 20 ton cherry picker into the basin floor 60' below. The jolt ripped the counterweight. and squished him like a bug, Every rigger knew that this kind of lift is dangerous. The kid didnt know. Unions push safety. not management. They are into maintaining schedule and budget. That is just the way it is. Are you telling me that cops and fire fighters don't need as safe an environment as miners or steel workers? Why dontcha just get a bunch of foreign people to build your stuff and protect it?

Back in the trans continental rail building days, the crew chief would give a coolie a few barrels of black powder and a 5 second fuse. The fine for a fatality was 50 cents. To do the job safely required 75 cents of fuse. You do the math.

That is an extreme example, but I've seen minor versions of it in many construction jobs that I've worked on. Unions push safety measures in every area they send workers into. These procedures are adopted into the electrical code for instance, and have led to a constant decline in electrical accidents. This benefits all of us.

 

[greenaccord02]

Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
nurses are not allowed to unionized in the nashville area. if a hospital finds out if a nurse is trying to start a union, that nurse is fired.


As she should be. Or he, as the case may be.

 

[crinkles]

I prefer a small family enterprise to work for. Even a large unlisted company of say 20 - 50 employees would be OK.

once you deal with a corporation, even moreso a listed corporation with shareholders who only care about dimes, Unions have their place.

I belong to an "association", a union by another name, mostly for help with workplace legislation and rights. I haven't brought pay into it yet, but the corporation i work for have been draggin feet for everyone, and many people have left. some of the best people.

 

[Silk]

I prefer to work for smaller companies too - where I can tell the boss to stick his job and walk out...or if he wants he can fire me for no reason apart from that he wants me gone.I've joined the union a couple of times when I worked for bigger companies,but didn't like the big company or union thing.

Unions have given us our rights as workers,but their teeth were plucked a few years ago and they have very little power here now.

 

[QuadDriver]

They have not in the past.....

But that was before the dept of labor and state/federal labor laws.

However, for grievances the dept(s) of labor have essentially turned a deaf ear to the populace - they too are now controled by big money.

And the unions hurt their credibility via misappropriations of the dues paid into organized crime to the point that there is not a single legitimate function of the steelworkers/haulers, teamsters, waste mgmt, electrical or contruction trades unions.

So pick your poison.