Would changing brake fluid and bleeding help stopping power?

[phenomic]

I have a 97 z28 camaro with the stock calipers and rotors. I have to admit i love the car but the braking on it kind of sucks and during a rainstorm, it faded and i ended up into a ditch. MY rotors were turned and i got new ceramic brake pads on the front recently. I was wondering if changing my braking fluid is worth the difficult job (I have changed every other fluid and filter in the car so far).

I got my car a few months ago so i have no clue whether or not the fluid is new and whether or not it was bled right (Do i need to get new lines by any chance?). The level on the fluid is good but i know nothing about it.

It says to use dot3 so i was just thinking about picking up some fluid and flushing it. (Does anyone know how much fluid i would need to completely flush the old fluid out and put the new one in?)

 

[moribundman]

Brake fluid is hygroscopic, meaning it absorbs moisture out of the air. No brake system is hermetically sealed, thus moisture will find its way into the fluid over time. Water in the brake fluid will lower the boiling point of the brake fluid, resulting in reduction or even loss of stopping power. Moisture will also corrode brake lines, brake pistons, and the ABS control unit.

Get a pressure bleeder (Searh for "Motive pressure bleeder), which makes bleeding brakes a simple one-man job, and use the brake fluid suggested in the manual. Flush the system with the same fluid you will use for filling.

Since your car seems to still use the original brake fluid, you may want to make sure that your calipers and pistons are in good shape. Chances are you should get a repair/rebuild kit for the calipers, because the seals are probably not good anymore.

I don't know how much brake fluid your car requires, but it should say in the manual under "capacities." Don't forget you need more for the flush.

Note: your life depends on your brakes. When in doubt, have a professional work on your brakes.

 

[XS650]

If it's really cruddy, you may need over a pint. If money's an issue, but two pints and if you don't need both you can take the still sealed unused pint back.

You can give yourself a big head start by emptying the cruddy fluid out of the resevoir with a turkey baster and filling it with clean fluid before you start bleeding.

-DON'T- let the fluid get down to the bottom of the resevoir, if you pump air into the brakes, you have to start over.

If you have hydraulic clutch, it's a good idea to flush/bleed that too.

 

[phenomic]

I guess i will bleed the system when i get a chance thanks for the tips. Ill see what i can do about a rebuild kit, i may even get all new hardware in the near future if bleeding doesnt help. MY rotors are getting thin and they have some minor heat cracks (WAs told they are ok for now but once they start to pulse, i should replace them).

I was wondering if i need to bleed anything besides the 4 calipers, i heard something about there being some ABS stuff that needs to be bled as well. Is anyone familiar with this? I am also not familiar with bleeding a hydraulic clutch either (My cars an automatic so i may or may not have it).

 

[labman]

If your brakes had a firm pedal and didn't stop you in the rain, likely the rotors and pads were wet. You can protect your self by slightly riding the brakes a little after hitting the puddles. A little, a lot will fade them.

If the pedal is spongy, usually it is air in the system, and will be that way wet or dry. That can be cured by bleeding the brakes.

Next pad change, you should have the calipers rebuilt or replaced. Nothing lasts forever. Cold, salt, crud, heat, time, and stones are hard on the boots that separate the cruel outside world from your brake parts. The fluid doesn't contact the boot or the more exposed parts of the piston. Changing it won't protect the parts that fail first. Clean up or replace all the hardware. Slather everything good with Sil-Glyde from NAPA, well not the pads and rotors. Changing the fluid can cause more problems than it solves. When I worked in a brake shop, I never heard of it.

 

[moribundman]

Deleted, we do not accept put-downs of other posters.

[ December 01, 2004, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]

 

[Ken2]

Many of us disagree with Labman about the deterioration of brake fluid and the need to periodically renew it.

Here's one reference:
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/brakefluid1a.htm

How many miles on that '97? It might be time for a full brake job...rotors, rebuilt calipers, flushed & renewed fluid. Also check for spongy brake hoses. You don't need high priced stainless steel brake hoses.

Here are some reference prices for parts if you do the work yourself:
https://www.rockauto.com/applet3.html


Ken

 

[kevm14]

quote:

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Originally posted by phenomic:
I have a 97 z28 camaro with the stock calipers and rotors. I have to admit i love the car but the braking on it kind of sucks and during a rainstorm, it faded and i ended up into a ditch.

It says to use dot3 so i was just thinking about picking up some fluid and flushing it. (Does anyone know how much fluid i would need to completely flush the old fluid out and put the new one in?)

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I have a Camaro and my braking performance in the rain is also sub-par. But you incorrectly identified it as "fade" when it was caused by water all over the braking surfaces. Bleeding won't help that. But bleeding/flushing the brakes is never a bad idea. Get 2 (liters?) of those big Valvoline DOT4 containers. That'll be plenty.

 

[tdi-rick]

re periodic bleeding of the brakes, If you go into the garages in the pits at any race track in the world, one of the routine procedures is to bleed the brakes before practice, before qualifying and before racing.
I even used to flush the system through on Formula Fords (which are very light on brakes) before each meeting.

One of my mates swears his pedal is firmer when he dumps the OE fluid and refills with Castrol SRF whenever he buys a new road car.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by phenomic:


I was wondering if i need to bleed anything besides the 4 calipers, i heard something about there being some ABS stuff that needs to be bled as well. Is anyone familiar with this? I am also not familiar with bleeding a hydraulic clutch either (My cars an automatic so i may or may not have it).

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You don't have hydraulic clutch then.

The ABS system is another issue. My 1/2 way measure i:, If the fluid was really cruddy, bleed the brakes. Then go make a few stops that are hard enough to work the ABS. It's best to find a wet or loose surface and use a lot of care so you don't crash. I did that with an 8 year old car I bought last year with really cruddy brake fluid in it.

Then rebleed the brakes. When I stay on top of keeping the brakes bled every two years or more, I don't bother doing anything special for the ABS. I don't think there is much fluid in the ABS unit.

Whether actuating the ABS does much of a job of cleaning out the brakes or not, it's a good idea to verify that it works and give it some exercise every few months so it's seals don't take a set.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken2:
Many of us disagree with Labman about the deterioration of brake fluid and the need to periodically renew it.

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I'm one of them. His aversion to maintaining the insides of his brake systems aside

, Labman does give good advice on checking on the condition of non-wetted brake system parts and taking care of them. Some of the best I have seen.

 

[moribundman]

quote:

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Deleted, we do not accept put-downs of other posters.

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Great, now he thinks I said something worse than I actually said. Thanks.

 

[labman]

I am still waiting for some facts addressing any of these points:

1 In the past it was rare for anybody to replace brake fluid and still not common.

2 Brake fluid can, and even has, volatilized and lead to loss of brakes. Despite millions of cars out there with 10-20 year old brake fluid, it seldom happens. I wonder if the occasional cases are less just old brake fluid or more like somebody had been topping up a leaky system out of the can they lost the cap to 10 years ago? Maybe the Iffy Lube topped up the MC with coolant? Say never? How about all the MC's they kill with PS fluid? Usually brakes fade before the fluid boils.

3 Sticking or leaking calipers are much more common and usually are caused by corroded pistons. The corrosion usually occurs beyond the part wetted by the brake fluid.

4 Most brake lines that have holes rusted in them, are severely pitted on the outside near the leak.

5 Inlets are at the bottom of the caliper, outlets at the top. Air rises to the top. But there may not be enough flow to push accumulated crud up and out. The new fluid may not even flush out the old fluid in the narrow, annular space between the piston and caliper bore. I have seen inside enough calipers to know that crud accumulates in them. I just doubt you can flush it all out with new fluid.

6 Cast iron caliper castings seldom have to be replaced because they are corroded.

7 In the last thread, I brought up the point that winter conditions may be harder on calipers. Nobody seemed to want to consider that idea. What works in the sun belt may fail in the salt belt.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by labman:
I am still waiting for some facts addressing any of these points:

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Labman, I suspect that everyone here would agree with you that changing brake fluid does nothing for parts not touched by the brake fluid.

Changing your brake fluid won't put rubber back on your tires or make your garden grow either.

 

[moribundman]

What I don't get it why labman keeps riding on the issue that parts other than the brake fluid go bad and need to be replaced as necessary. Nobody ever disputes that maintenance and repairing broken parts is necessary. He keeps arguing for one thing as means to argue against another? It makes no sense!

labman wrote:

quote:

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In the past it was rare for anybody to replace brake fluid and still not common.

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Please think about what that statement really means.

 

[HerkyJim]

I'm thinking...'72 Plymouth inherited from the folks. Last brake service summer 1994. Miles since then 65,000. No brake fluid added since I got it 6 years ago. I don't even check it. Why check it? There are no brake leaks and the brakes work fine. If there are no leaks it can't be low on fluid and I'd just take a chance on contaminating what's in there. I don't care what color wahtever's in there is either. So; I'm with labman. You guys worry too much. You need a hobby.
My $0.02

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by labman:
Brake fluid can, and even has, volatilized and lead to loss of brakes. Despite millions of cars out there with 10-20 year old brake fluid, it seldom happens.

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Do insurance companies, as a routine matter in accident cases where someone says that they applied the brakes and they failed to work, take samples of brake fluid and analyze them?

 

[moribundman]

quote:

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No brake fluid added since I got it 6 years ago. I don't even check it.

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A sensible approach for sure. Good luck.

quote:

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If there are no leaks it can't be low on fluid and I'd just take a chance on contaminating what's in there.

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Yeah, all that water that that gets absorbed out of the atmosphere by the HYGROSCOPIC brake fluid might actually increase the level of fluid. Good luck.

hygroscopic brake fluid

 

[HerkyJim]

"Volatalized" "hygroscopic"...man, youse guys with the big words got me so worried I had to drag out my '72 Imperial Chrysler Plymouth passenger car 1972 chassis service manual. Look in chapter 5 BRakes. Don't say nuthin' about replacing brake fluid. Check chapter 1 lubrication and maintenance and it says check the fluid level in the master cylinder every 6 months and that "... no noticeable drop in level should occur in a car equipped entirely with drum brakes. Low fluid level may have been caused by a leak and a checkup may be needed."

Whew; I guess I'll be Ok since I get underneath every 3 months to change oil and while I'm at it I look for leaks. No leak--no low fluid. But I'll be on the lookout for overflows from all that hygroscopic water...
My $0.02

 

[labman]

quote:

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Originally posted by moribundman:
What I don't get it why labman keeps riding on the issue that parts other than the brake fluid go bad and need to be replaced as necessary. snip....

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What I don't get is why so many of you are insisting you must change the brake fluid when none of you can relate it to preventing common brake problems. Yes, yes, yes, brake fluid is hygroscopic. Does that cause problems? Seldom.

In this whole long thread there is only one other reference besides my first post to the actual problem, water on the outside of the brake system. The guy mistakenly thought bleeding the brakes might help a situation where he had a firm pedal.