Worlds largest coal-to-ethanol plant

[wemay]

I thought ethanol was, by definition, a corn sourced product only.

Is coal mining cheaper than growing corn in China?

China launches test runs for world’s largest coal-to-ethanol plant

Coal-based production line ‘vital’ for China’s food and energy security, co-developer Dalian Institute of Chemical Physics says in report on website.

www.scmp.com

 

[4WD]

Be interesting to see the spin - coal mining can be devastating to land - the equipment is massive - often diesel …

 

[bullwinkle]

I've read stories about how coal was converted to coal gas & oil in the late 1800s here in the USA-the pollution persists to PRESENT DAY!! It's a shame we don't get along-I'm sure corn farmers would LOVE the higher price for shipping corn to China to produce ethanol...

 

[SHOZ]

I've read stories about how coal was converted to coal gas & oil in the late 1800s here in the USA-the pollution persists to PRESENT DAY!!

The had a lot of the coal to gas plants in the cities. Still to this day most of those sites are too polluted to use unless paved over. This is what got Chicago in trouble with their encampment for illegals recently. They had to tear it down before it was done.

 

[SC Maintenance]

For China its likely neither about pollution or efficiency. They lack enough arable land for crops. They lack fossil fuel reserves. They do not have coal deposits either - or not enough - they import a lot from Australia. So it might be just about keeping workers busy, or diversification. China's mindset always about whats best for China. Money isn't an issue - they just print more, then deny they printed it.

Ethanol from corn isn't much better honestly, its mostly about the AG lobby at this point - crude oil produced gasoline is cheaper here than ethanol I believe, if the subsidies are actually counted as costs.

 

[SHOZ]

For China its likely neither about pollution or efficiency. They lack enough arable land for crops. They lack fossil fuel reserves. They do not have coal deposits either - or not enough - they import a lot from Australia. So it might be just about keeping workers busy, or diversification. China's mindset always about whats best for China. Money isn't an issue - they just print more, then deny they printed it.

Ethanol from corn isn't much better honestly, its mostly about the AG lobby at this point - crude oil produced gasoline is cheaper here than ethanol I believe, if the subsidies are actually counted as costs.

If ethanol to corn was stopped the farmers and the supporting companies would take a big hit. No different than any other subsidy scheme. Ethanol was a solution back in the 70s with carburetors but fuel injection, electronic engine control with O2 sensors make the clean burn part moot.

 

[skyactiv]

I wonder if that pic was taken during fog conditions.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

I would have a hard time believing this process wouldn’t release a lot of CO2 and wouldn’t release heavy metals into the surrounding environment.

 

[SHOZ]

I would have a hard time believing this process wouldn’t release a lot of CO2 and wouldn’t release heavy metals into the surrounding environment.

Depends on the stack scrubber tech. The old time coal gasification plants just dumped the waste on the ground. So it was full of mercury and arsenic etc. New US coal plants emit water and CO2 not much other pollution.

From the wiki...

During gasification, the coal is blown through with oxygen and steam (water vapor) while also being heated (and in some cases pressurized). If the coal is heated by external heat sources the process is called "allothermal", while "autothermal" process assumes heating of the coal via exothermal chemical reactions occurring inside the gasifier itself. It is essential that the oxidizer supplied is insufficient for complete oxidizing (combustion) of the fuel. During the reactions mentioned, oxygen and water molecules oxidize the coal and produce a gaseous mixture of carbon dioxide (CO2), carbon monoxide (CO), water vapour (H2O), and molecular hydrogen (H2). (Some by-products like tar, phenols, etc. are also possible end products, depending on the specific gasification technology utilized.) This process has been conducted in-situ within natural coal seams (referred to as underground coal gasification) and in coal refineries. The desired end product is usually syngas (i.e., a combination of H2 + CO), but the produced coal gas may also be further refined to produce additional quantities of H2:

3C (i.e., coal) + O2 + H2O → H2 + 3CO

 

[Snagglefoot]

The truth is, pigs like eating corn. Any corn used to make ethanol, increases the cost of pig production, which something of concern in China.

 

[SHOZ]

The truth is, pigs like eating corn. Any corn used to make ethanol, increases the cost of pig production, which something of concern in China.

Especially USA corn. That gets fed to China pigs that go to the USA. Oh wait that's chickens..

 

[thastinger]

Be interesting to see the spin - coal mining can be devastating to land - the equipment is massive - often diesel …

How do you think corn is grown?

 

[SHOZ]

How do you think corn is grown?

The latest yields around me for corn are 200-250 bushels per acer. A lot more corn is gown with a lot less fuel and time input than 40 years ago when 100 bushels was a bumper crop and they spent weeks in the field. US ag is a good testament to efficiency.

 

[thastinger]

The latest yields around me for corn are 200-250 bushels per acer. A lot more corn is gown with a lot less fuel and time input than 40 years ago when 100 bushels was a bumper crop and they spent weeks in the field. US ag is a good testament to efficiency.

Sure. 26Lbs of corn needed to make one gallon of Ethanol, so that is about 2 gallons of Ethanol per bushel.
Now lets figure out how much diesel fuel is used to plant/do weed control/spread fertilizer/harvest/transport the corn, plus how much propane is burned to dry it and how much natural gas is used to make the fertilizer.
Then, of course, there is the sugar and heat source needed to distill the ethanol from the corn and the machinery needed to crack all that corn.

 

[Snagglefoot]

The Germans made liquid fuel from coal 80 years ago during WWII. Perhaps someone would like to update us on that.

 

[goingplacesanddoingstuff]

Depends on the stack scrubber tech. The old time coal gasification plants just dumped the waste on the ground. So it was full of mercury and arsenic etc. New US coal plants emit water and CO2 not much other pollution.

From the wiki...

During gasification, the coal is blown through with oxygen and steam (water vapor) while also being heated (and in some cases pressurized). If the coal is heated by external heat sources the process is called "allothermal", while "autothermal" process assumes heating of the coal via exothermal chemical reactions occurring inside the gasifier itself. It is essential that the oxidizer supplied is insufficient for complete oxidizing (combustion) of the fuel. During the reactions mentioned, oxygen and water molecules oxidize the coal and produce a gaseous mixture of carbon dioxide (CO2), carbon monoxide (CO), water vapour (H2O), and molecular hydrogen (H2). (Some by-products like tar, phenols, etc. are also possible end products, depending on the specific gasification technology utilized.) This process has been conducted in-situ within natural coal seams (referred to as underground coal gasification) and in coal refineries. The desired end product is usually syngas (i.e., a combination of H2 + CO), but the produced coal gas may also be further refined to produce additional quantities of H2:

3C (i.e., coal) + O2 + H2O → H2 + 3CO

This is in China, bear in mind.

 

[SHOZ]

Sure. 26Lbs of corn needed to make one gallon of Ethanol, so that is about 2 gallons of Ethanol per bushel.
Now lets figure out how much diesel fuel is used to plant/do weed control/spread fertilizer/harvest/transport the corn, plus how much propane is burned to dry it and how much natural gas is used to make the fertilizer.
Then, of course, there is the sugar and heat source needed to distill the ethanol from the corn and the machinery needed to crack all that corn.

That's my point. Since the 70s the amount of diesel and drying time is way down. The GMO corn will dry down a lot faster and the weed control is easier. No cultivation anymore, Usually two passes before planting, chisel then disc. Some times done at one time depending on soil conditions. One weed treatment either before or after they sprout up. Around here they seldom use dryers like in the past. The time they spend in the fields is a at least a quarter of what they use to do. Use to take 4-6 weeks to get the crops planted now they are usually done in two weeks. Same with the harvesting.

I'm not a supporter of anything that is subsidized. But US ag is quite a bit efficient from what it was 40 years ago.

 

[SHOZ]

This is in China, bear in mind.

So what is their tech on the most modern plant? Probably developed in the US universities......

 

[Snagglefoot]

Sure. 26Lbs of corn needed to make one gallon of Ethanol, so that is about 2 gallons of Ethanol per bushel.
Now lets figure out how much diesel fuel is used to plant/do weed control/spread fertilizer/harvest/transport the corn, plus how much propane is burned to dry it and how much natural gas is used to make the fertilizer.
Then, of course, there is the sugar and heat source needed to distill the ethanol from the corn and the machinery needed to crack all that corn.

These numbers are out there with a little more google work, but in the end it didn’t matter. At the time E85 was introduced and all those vehicle came out that could run E85, there were serious concerns about America’s oil production. Fracking brought production back to new records and E85 exists mostly in the corn belt.

 

[SHOZ]

And most of the food value in corn is preserved in the meal that is fed to livestock. A big concern around me and why the ethanol plants got turned down was daily water usage.