WIX 57356XP and FRAM XG7317 Cut Open and Compared

[das_peikko]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
More nice work. How sturdy is the WIX mesh? It looks pretty good.


I can tell you with the one I have cut open, the pleats do not move around or flex at all; they are rock solid.

 

[RitcheyRch]

Thanks for the awesome cut open pictures. Much appreciated.

 

[HX520W]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
How sturdy is the WIX mesh? It looks pretty good.

It's about the same stiffness as the mesh on the FRAM (maybe slightly stiffer in some directions).

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Can you give us the date codes and whether the XP is marked M+H or Affinia. The Fram is an older version, though they are supposed to be the same internally. (new ones are painted with single color graphics.)

Strangely enough, I was unable to find a date code on the FRAM. I even removed the sticker from the filter and lightly coated the canister with graphite in an attempt to highlight the writing, but I still had no luck.


Both the WIX pictured in this thread and the new one that I just put on have Affinia written on them.

I'm not familar with how WIX writes their date codes. Does 100515 mean that it was made on May 10th 2015? If that's the case, it makes sense that it's still marked with Affinia's logo.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: HX520W
Strangely enough, I was unable to find a date code on the FRAM. I even removed the sticker from the filter and lightly coated the canister with graphite in an attempt to highlight the writing, but I still had no luck.


There was a period where some XGs were missing the date code. I had a thread about it, but Motorking never gave a reason why. - LINK

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

HX520W, I have a Q? for you, in which it "might" be an opinion from you, instead of an answer.
I am using the WIX 51516 XP on my engine. As you know this filter is about 5" tall and 3" in diameter. The WIX filter in your C&P is (I'm guessing 3" tall) shorter than my filter. With the pleats being shorter they should be more stout, rigid, than my WIX filter pleats are, correct? Or, do you think WIX might enhance them some way to make them as rigid? I hope I'm explaining this correctly.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The wire backing ensures the media stays where it's supposed to be. That's why you'll never see any bent over pleats and resulting media tears in full synthetic media filters - the pleats don't bend over due to the ridged wire backing.

 

[das_peikko]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
HX520W, I have a Q? for you, in which it "might" be an opinion from you, instead of an answer.
I am using the WIX 51516 XP on my engine. As you know this filter is about 5" tall and 3" in diameter. The WIX filter in your C&P is (I'm guessing 3" tall) shorter than my filter. With the pleats being shorter they should be more stout, rigid, than my WIX filter pleats are, correct? Or, do you think WIX might enhance them some way to make them as rigid? I hope I'm explaining this correctly.

You need to get a Wix XP in your hand. They feel completely different from paper filters. Built to the hilt is what they are.

 

[HX520W]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
"Racing Filters" always tend to have a high bypass valve setting along with very good flow performance (ie, low PSID with high oil flow). Reason being, the designers expect those filters will be used on engines that have a high flow oil pump, using a thicker oil and are living at high RPM on the track. One thing you don't really want is the filter running in bypass most of the time at high RPM.

Here's the Ford Racing Performance "racing filter". Good flow, high efficiency and a high bypass valve setting. BTW, most full synthetic filters will flow about the same as what's shown in the graph for the FRP filter - ie, around 5~6 PSID at 10 GPM with hot oil.
I'm not sure what the flow rate is for this engine at WOT (CVT holds it at 6000 rpm). Do you know what typical flow rates are? The WIX has a bypass setting of 8-11 psi and the FRAM's bypass valve is set to 13 psi, both of which should allow for a decent amount of flow before going into bypass. Right now, I'm more worried about oil starvation (especially now that the car has a dedicated set of track tires) than the filter letting some unfiltered oil through, but it would be nice to know how close I am to the limits of the filters.

Thanks for the data sheet, I always like finding information like that.

 

[HX520W]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
There was a period where some XGs were missing the date code. I had a thread about it, but Motorking never gave a reason why. - LINK
I thought that I remembered something about that. Thanks.

 

[HX520W]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
HX520W, I have a Q? for you, in which it "might" be an opinion from you, instead of an answer.
I am using the WIX 51516 XP on my engine. As you know this filter is about 5" tall and 3" in diameter. The WIX filter in your C&P is (I'm guessing 3" tall) shorter than my filter. With the pleats being shorter they should be more stout, rigid, than my WIX filter pleats are, correct? Or, do you think WIX might enhance them some way to make them as rigid? I hope I'm explaining this correctly.

Yes, shorter pleats should be stiffer and have less movement side-to-side than taller ones. However, I don't think that there will be an issue with these types of filters. The mesh that supports the media is quite stiff and springs back into shape if you try bending it while it's glued into the end caps.

I actually have a WIX 51516XP on one of the cars I service right now. I doubt that the design is changed for the taller filters, but I'll know for sure when I cut that filter open in about four months (unless you beat me to it

).

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: HX520W
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
HX520W, I have a Q? for you, in which it "might" be an opinion from you, instead of an answer.
I am using the WIX 51516 XP on my engine. As you know this filter is about 5" tall and 3" in diameter. The WIX filter in your C&P is (I'm guessing 3" tall) shorter than my filter. With the pleats being shorter they should be more stout, rigid, than my WIX filter pleats are, correct? Or, do you think WIX might enhance them some way to make them as rigid? I hope I'm explaining this correctly.

Yes, shorter pleats should be stiffer and have less movement side-to-side than taller ones. However, I don't think that there will be an issue with these types of filters. The mesh that supports the media is quite stiff and springs back into shape if you try bending it while it's glued into the end caps.

I actually have a WIX 51516XP on one of the cars I service right now. I doubt that the design is changed for the taller filters, but I'll know for sure when I cut that filter open in about four months (unless you beat me to it

).

The only way I will beat you is if I do a 3K mile OCI. I'm already pushing it to 5K miles. And some say I should go as far as 7.5K miles! I might not be able to sleep at night if I do that! Oh, the madness!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: HX520W
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
"Racing Filters" always tend to have a high bypass valve setting along with very good flow performance (ie, low PSID with high oil flow). Reason being, the designers expect those filters will be used on engines that have a high flow oil pump, using a thicker oil and are living at high RPM on the track. One thing you don't really want is the filter running in bypass most of the time at high RPM.

Here's the Ford Racing Performance "racing filter". Good flow, high efficiency and a high bypass valve setting. BTW, most full synthetic filters will flow about the same as what's shown in the graph for the FRP filter - ie, around 5~6 PSID at 10 GPM with hot oil.

I'm not sure what the flow rate is for this engine at WOT (CVT holds it at 6000 rpm). Do you know what typical flow rates are? The WIX has a bypass setting of 8-11 psi and the FRAM's bypass valve is set to 13 psi, both of which should allow for a decent amount of flow before going into bypass. Right now, I'm more worried about oil starvation (especially now that the car has a dedicated set of track tires) than the filter letting some unfiltered oil through, but it would be nice to know how close I am to the limits of the filters.


Since the GM 5.7L V8 (LS1/LS6) oil pump puts out a max of about 7.0 GPM at redline (6500 RPM), I'd say your engine probably isn't any more than that. With a full synthetic filter, the delta-p should only be around 3~4 PSI with hot oil (say 5W-30 at 200 deg F).

As long as the filter isn't loaded up much you should be good and have plenty of headroom before the bypass valve opens up. Just don't go nuts until the oil is close to full operating temperature, as cold oil will definitely give more detla-p across the media at high RPM.

 

[DuckRyder]

Oil pump flow should be in the FSM? Pretty easy to find online for D-series, but not so much for CR-Z engine (LEA series?).

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: HX520W
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
"Racing Filters" always tend to have a high bypass valve setting along with very good flow performance (ie, low PSID with high oil flow). Reason being, the designers expect those filters will be used on engines that have a high flow oil pump, using a thicker oil and are living at high RPM on the track. One thing you don't really want is the filter running in bypass most of the time at high RPM.

Here's the Ford Racing Performance "racing filter". Good flow, high efficiency and a high bypass valve setting. BTW, most full synthetic filters will flow about the same as what's shown in the graph for the FRP filter - ie, around 5~6 PSID at 10 GPM with hot oil.

I'm not sure what the flow rate is for this engine at WOT (CVT holds it at 6000 rpm). Do you know what typical flow rates are? The WIX has a bypass setting of 8-11 psi and the FRAM's bypass valve is set to 13 psi, both of which should allow for a decent amount of flow before going into bypass. Right now, I'm more worried about oil starvation (especially now that the car has a dedicated set of track tires) than the filter letting some unfiltered oil through, but it would be nice to know how close I am to the limits of the filters.


Since the GM 5.7L V8 (LS1/LS6) oil pump puts out a max of about 7.0 GPM at redline (6500 RPM), I'd say your engine probably isn't any more than that. With a full synthetic filter, the delta-p should only be around 3~4 PSI with hot oil (say 5W-30 at 200 deg F).

As long as the filter isn't loaded up much you should be good and have plenty of headroom before the bypass valve opens up. Just don't go nuts until the oil is close to full operating temperature, as cold oil will definitely give more detla-p across the media at high RPM.

Z06, which LS engine is in your Z06? Which name brand filter and oil do you use on/in it?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Z06, which LS engine is in your Z06? Which name brand filter and oil do you use on/in it?


Engine is the LS6, which is a higher performance version of the LS1. I've always used Mobil 1 5W-30 oil and have used many different filters on it - AC Delco UPF, Amsoil, WIX/NAPA Gold, PureOne (before Teargate), Ultra. All gave the same oil pressure at near redline, so all flowed well.

 

[HX520W]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Oil pump flow should be in the FSM? Pretty easy to find online for D-series, but not so much for CR-Z engine (LEA series?).
For some reason, the FSM only gives information on minimum oil pressure. Even the Honda Racing assembly manual for the L15A7 doesn't list oil flow rates.

I you're curious, page 48 in the HPD manual gives you just about all the information that I have about the oiling system.

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: HX520W
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Oil pump flow should be in the FSM? Pretty easy to find online for D-series, but not so much for CR-Z engine (LEA series?).
For some reason, the FSM only gives information on minimum oil pressure. Even the Honda Racing assembly manual for the L15A7 doesn't list oil flow rates.

I you’re curious, page 48 in the HPD manual gives you just about all the information that I have about the oiling system.


Yep, I noticed that in the Civic manual I have as well. I was thinking that they had more information in them. Just for the sake of discussion it appears that Honda pumps vary widely in flow rates if the numbers to be found in places like:

https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced-induction-16/good-d-series-oil-pump-comparison-3237036/

Are to be believed - these vary from 33 LPM to 63 LPM for the D Series engine. (that is what ~8.5 GPM to ~16.5GPM)

At any rate, we seem to have substantially side tracked the tread, my apologies.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The question is, are those oil pump flow rates with a regulated pump or unregulated pump? In other words, are those the flow rates actually going through the engine's oiling system, or just raw unregulated flow rates without any downstream flow resistance that would kick in the pressure regulator on the pump? Really need a performance graph showing "Flow vs RPM vs Output Pressure", and graph of output flow up to the pressure regulator setting.

The oil flow rate actually going through the engine is what's also going through the oil filter, so any unregulated oil pump flow numbers are misleading. Only way to force more oil through the engine is to keep raising the pump's pressure regulator valve setting. A trick old school racers would do ... put in a stiffer oil pump pressure regulator spring if the pump was physically able to keep putting out more flow.