a 5w50 wouldnt that require huge ammount of vii?
i dont know if even a synthetic could manage that without a bunch of vii floating around.....
i dont know if even a synthetic could manage that without a bunch of vii floating around.....
.....wish I could buy this here.....
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Patman, wearcheck site agent in Oz links to a company that calls themselves ALS Chemex, specialising in geology.
I'll give them a call next week.
BTW, not trying to "take the **** ", to quote a local phrase, I am genuinely interested in the results. I decided about a year ago that I'd never go higher than an enythingW-40, but want to give this a look, for the single data point it might generate.
I'll give them a call next week.
BTW, not trying to "take the **** ", to quote a local phrase, I am genuinely interested in the results. I decided about a year ago that I'd never go higher than an enythingW-40, but want to give this a look, for the single data point it might generate.
Hi,
M1 5w-50 here in OZ is about $A50 for a 5 litres container, the M1 0w-40 is about $A80 for 6 litres in 1 litre packs
Delvac 1 is about $A10 per litre in bulk
Regards
M1 5w-50 here in OZ is about $A50 for a 5 litres container, the M1 0w-40 is about $A80 for 6 litres in 1 litre packs
Delvac 1 is about $A10 per litre in bulk
Regards
I converted A dollars to US dollars, pretty expensive down under, $A50 is about $32.89 here. $A80 would be about $52.63.
Dr T,
You address issues that we have previously discussed on this board but I have not seen definitive answers to. Are engines REALLY designed with a certain viscosity in mind or do other issues actually dictate grade specifications? I've seen the loose tolerance, heavier weight oils, tight tolerance/lighter weight oils discussion but I also know that the supposedly tight tolerance high tech European (and Japanese) motors have, for a long time, used heavier weight oils than recommended here (and with some motors it is still that way...different recommendations for US and overseas versions, with the overseas using heavier grades)...I believe it was Sprintman who was talking about a 40W70 marketed in OZ for pity sakes!!!! The changes to lighter wieghts I have seen for overseas motors is from those companies who are trying to "go green" (certainly that doesn't constitute an engineering issue) and not because they had a technological epiphany. I do understand that synthetics appear to allow lighter oils in applications that in the past we would have said, "No way," or allow for oils to start out lighter while still retaining a reasonable operating weight (e.g. 0W40). I also do believe that M1 0W30 or Castrol German 0W30 can handle temps from -50F to 100+F, something we would not have accepted previously. Now if engines REALLY run hotter or experience serious drag increases with a 40-70 wt, that is important, but is 1.5% better fuel economy that signficant, especially if it only really apllies under certain driving conditions (1.5% over a 15000 mile driving year=225 miles!!) It seems to me like a well engineered 5W50 or 10W60 gives us the best of both worlds (low startup wear, easy cranking at most temps we will encounter while providing hot temp/high speed/heavy load protection). I have no axe to grind one way or the other, but I would like to see a well-documented explanation that points one way or the other. (When I lived in Germany in the early 80s the Europeans were touting "light running" oils, yet I still see the heavy stuff in their recommendations...what's the deal?
You address issues that we have previously discussed on this board but I have not seen definitive answers to. Are engines REALLY designed with a certain viscosity in mind or do other issues actually dictate grade specifications? I've seen the loose tolerance, heavier weight oils, tight tolerance/lighter weight oils discussion but I also know that the supposedly tight tolerance high tech European (and Japanese) motors have, for a long time, used heavier weight oils than recommended here (and with some motors it is still that way...different recommendations for US and overseas versions, with the overseas using heavier grades)...I believe it was Sprintman who was talking about a 40W70 marketed in OZ for pity sakes!!!! The changes to lighter wieghts I have seen for overseas motors is from those companies who are trying to "go green" (certainly that doesn't constitute an engineering issue) and not because they had a technological epiphany. I do understand that synthetics appear to allow lighter oils in applications that in the past we would have said, "No way," or allow for oils to start out lighter while still retaining a reasonable operating weight (e.g. 0W40). I also do believe that M1 0W30 or Castrol German 0W30 can handle temps from -50F to 100+F, something we would not have accepted previously. Now if engines REALLY run hotter or experience serious drag increases with a 40-70 wt, that is important, but is 1.5% better fuel economy that signficant, especially if it only really apllies under certain driving conditions (1.5% over a 15000 mile driving year=225 miles!!) It seems to me like a well engineered 5W50 or 10W60 gives us the best of both worlds (low startup wear, easy cranking at most temps we will encounter while providing hot temp/high speed/heavy load protection). I have no axe to grind one way or the other, but I would like to see a well-documented explanation that points one way or the other. (When I lived in Germany in the early 80s the Europeans were touting "light running" oils, yet I still see the heavy stuff in their recommendations...what's the deal?
No, no...no beef either. I'd like to know the truth too...it's just from my experience...
If you use thin oils and you're changing it every 3k...who knows the engine may last forever. However, my experience has shown that 9k intervals with A3 5-30 oil results in increased sludge over time coupled with a DECREASE in fuel economy. Why? The cooking of these thin oils (as the oil consumption needs to go somewhere) begins to fill voids every where...rings, etc. which resulted in constrictions in the engine.
This is why there's a lot of reports of increased fuel economy with auto-rx use. Because a clean engine runs more efficiently. That said, a 20 or 30 weight IMHO can't take the heat and will result in the above. The heavier weights do not break down as much.
If you use thin oils and you're changing it every 3k...who knows the engine may last forever. However, my experience has shown that 9k intervals with A3 5-30 oil results in increased sludge over time coupled with a DECREASE in fuel economy. Why? The cooking of these thin oils (as the oil consumption needs to go somewhere) begins to fill voids every where...rings, etc. which resulted in constrictions in the engine.
This is why there's a lot of reports of increased fuel economy with auto-rx use. Because a clean engine runs more efficiently. That said, a 20 or 30 weight IMHO can't take the heat and will result in the above. The heavier weights do not break down as much.
Dr. T, how do you know this? Lets see some proof. Have you done any studies on this? Most engines if taken care of will last for hundreds of thousands of miles on a 30wt. I know this because I along with many other people have achieved this. I myself got 300k out of an 87 Corolla using the cheapest oil available. Mobil's million mile test was using a 30wt oil....what was wrong with that?
I do realize that CAFE is a huge factor but car companies today can't take the same approach of "lets make a car that falls apart so they will come back for more" mentality. You know why they can't? = Toyota and Honda tought the US a lesson during the 80's. People want and demand quality in general. There are those who still will go out and buy a Pontiac Aztec, but hey, if they like it and buy cars every 4yrs, fine.
BTW Mobil 1 15w-50 does have a HT/HS of 5.1.
From the product data sheet:
HTHS Viscosity, mPa·s @ 150ºC ASTM D 4683 5.11
[ July 17, 2003, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
Penrite sell a 40W70 here (who buys it?). M1 5W50 is the cheap buy anywhere M1 here. 0W40 or 10W30 harder to find. Pennzoil Performax 100 which I believe Johnny said was a really good PAO syn was 5W50 (still available in a few places). Ive gone from 25W70 dino to 5W40 syn as VOC (viscosity of choice) and even have 5W30 dino in other vehicle doing an after RX 'rinse'. I now have absolutely no bloody idea if thinner/thicker is the best!
I have been thinking about the heavy v. light oil debate and had an idea. Is it possible that in Europe that 20w-50 was the standard for years because with high speed running the oil was subject to high tempuratures (220-250F) and lower grade oils would break down (Black Death that was common with cars in europe in the 70s and 80s)? I have to wonder if the ligher oils are now being aproved by the europeon manufacutures because they can deal with the higher temps without breakdown. Maybe, HTST wasn't the problem that required the heavier oils.
Just an idea, I'm sticking with M1 0w-40, unless I try Redline 5w-40, but I'm waiting for a few more VOA's.
Cary
Just an idea, I'm sticking with M1 0w-40, unless I try Redline 5w-40, but I'm waiting for a few more VOA's.
Cary
Why can't we clear things up and then move forward with the new thinking??
Engines ARE NOT "made for" a certain viscosity. It's all B.S.. U.S. cars are spec'd for 5-30 in general so that:
1. fuel economy can look better \
2. speeds driven are lower (no autobahn)
3. engine doesn't last beyond warranty period (they need to sell new models)
4. B.S. in manual about how it's OK to do 7500mi intervals and then say...oh, but severe driving (heaven forbid non of us do this kind of driving) then do 3k intervals
5. oil is cheap - so using 5-30 or thinner is fine - astute owner will change 3k...for the rest...f 'em...they can get new engine/car etc.
Does thicker oil make an engine last longer? Yes and No. No, there will probably be no difference if someone changes their oil every 3k. Yes, if you have a sludge monster Toyota/Durango. Why? Because they hold up better when the going gets tough.
Intersting about Syntec 0-30....it's a **** good 0-30...but, grade points out it's suited for extreme winter. 30 weight points out to being good up to 10C or so. A3 means it will stand up in grade better than non A3 eg. M-1.
Interestingly enough, the girlfriend lost owner's manual. Bought new one yesterday....day after I put in the 5-50. Seems like ANY grade is suitable....from 0-30 to 20-50 as per non-CAFE chart we've all seen posted here before. I should post it here again. How do I post a pic (no I don't have webspace).
Doubt M-1 15-50 is HT/HS 5.11. Castrol 5-50 is 4.5 (SJ was 4.8) and 10-60 is 5.4
Engines ARE NOT "made for" a certain viscosity. It's all B.S.. U.S. cars are spec'd for 5-30 in general so that:
1. fuel economy can look better \
2. speeds driven are lower (no autobahn)
3. engine doesn't last beyond warranty period (they need to sell new models)
4. B.S. in manual about how it's OK to do 7500mi intervals and then say...oh, but severe driving (heaven forbid non of us do this kind of driving) then do 3k intervals
5. oil is cheap - so using 5-30 or thinner is fine - astute owner will change 3k...for the rest...f 'em...they can get new engine/car etc.
Does thicker oil make an engine last longer? Yes and No. No, there will probably be no difference if someone changes their oil every 3k. Yes, if you have a sludge monster Toyota/Durango. Why? Because they hold up better when the going gets tough.
Intersting about Syntec 0-30....it's a **** good 0-30...but, grade points out it's suited for extreme winter. 30 weight points out to being good up to 10C or so. A3 means it will stand up in grade better than non A3 eg. M-1.
Interestingly enough, the girlfriend lost owner's manual. Bought new one yesterday....day after I put in the 5-50. Seems like ANY grade is suitable....from 0-30 to 20-50 as per non-CAFE chart we've all seen posted here before. I should post it here again. How do I post a pic (no I don't have webspace).
Doubt M-1 15-50 is HT/HS 5.11. Castrol 5-50 is 4.5 (SJ was 4.8) and 10-60 is 5.4
Theres a RL 5W40 UOA here somwhere that is exceptional. Turbo engine too if I remember correctly.
Buster, can you point out the link to the Mobil 1's showing of any of their HT/HS numbers for any of their U.S. products.
This is the link they direct one to and they do not post this number, nor the Noack numbers.
https://dallnd6.dal.mobil.com/GIS/M...61638dff7d0453b085256b8400618b40?OpenDocument
This is the link they direct one to and they do not post this number, nor the Noack numbers.
https://dallnd6.dal.mobil.com/GIS/M...61638dff7d0453b085256b8400618b40?OpenDocument
Here you go.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/Product_Information/Automotive_Engine_Oils_Collection.asp
I've looked up Mobil's NOAK's from the NZ site (i think it was a that one). They are all in the 6-9% range.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/Product_Information/Automotive_Engine_Oils_Collection.asp
I've looked up Mobil's NOAK's from the NZ site (i think it was a that one). They are all in the 6-9% range.
Thanx buster...new to me.
Wonder why some of the numbers are different. A few are slightly off, but the one that stands out is the Flash Point....230 C. Hmmmmm....that's lower than any of the other grades of oil listed on the link I posted....and considerably lower than the 255 C they post there for the 15-50. Thing is, if these numbers are different, I would trust overseas numbers as being even less reliable.
At least I got a better defenition of what SuperSyn is:
"It is the most advanced antiwear addative system available today"
Wonder why some of the numbers are different. A few are slightly off, but the one that stands out is the Flash Point....230 C. Hmmmmm....that's lower than any of the other grades of oil listed on the link I posted....and considerably lower than the 255 C they post there for the 15-50. Thing is, if these numbers are different, I would trust overseas numbers as being even less reliable.
At least I got a better defenition of what SuperSyn is:
"It is the most advanced antiwear addative system available today"
Hi,
Dr T. - much oil testing is done in Autralia by Castrol and Mobil. Our diverse climate and unusual and extreme operating conditions are but some of the reasons.
The major vehicle manufacturers also test their prototypes here - Toyota, Nissan, Porsche, Benz, BMW to name but a few. They fly them in - use loacl engineers - and fly them out.
And all of the Truck makers do too
Have confidence in our numbers!
Regards
Dr T. - much oil testing is done in Autralia by Castrol and Mobil. Our diverse climate and unusual and extreme operating conditions are but some of the reasons.
The major vehicle manufacturers also test their prototypes here - Toyota, Nissan, Porsche, Benz, BMW to name but a few. They fly them in - use loacl engineers - and fly them out.
And all of the Truck makers do too
Have confidence in our numbers!
Regards
Oh I have confidence in the numbers per se....I just don't think they're applicable to the "supposedly same" oil sold in other continents with different playing fields. Let's put it this way, if I was in Europe I would not be using "U.S.-sourced" M-1 with all the other great European oils out there....that is why they make different products for different markets.
I agree with you. I think Mobil does a poor job with product data sheets. Sometimes the numbers are different for the same oil. Mobil does cater to the API and fuel efficiency requirments so European oils in general will meet higher specs. I think the 5.1 is right, mainly because they are using a less volatile base oil I imagine plus there is only a 25pt spread for a 15w-50. I don't think Mobil uses anything more advanced then Amsoil or Redline in terms of additive packages go.
[ July 18, 2003, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
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