Winter Tires

rjundi · Dec 20, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by doitmyself:
I have no argument against the validity of snow tires. They do their job as intended.

But......... with today's impatient drivers, would they instill a false sense of security and result in more accidents over all???

.........

Experienced drivers farther up north are less likely to end up off the road. It's called SLOWING DOWN.

I actaully agree with this. My previous car was a Civic with winter tires. I would sometimes going a bit faster than probably conditions warranted. Snow was no issue stopping or having control, however any ice (hand in hand typically with snow in New England) you are done.

My current car has me driving very slowly and carefully. Although AWD my Subaru WRX takes some skill to drive in slippery conditions with its mediocre high performance all seasons. Basically I just go slow. I think winter tires in conjunction with AWD would give superior traction/stopping in snow however on ice not so good. Nothing seems to work 100% there.

1sttruck · Dec 20, 2004

I recall reading about a Dodge truck owner who had bragging rights about pulling out a number of National Guard Hummers during one storm. He had to show some of them how to brake lightly to engage the limited slip (?) on their vehicles.

rjundi · Dec 21, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by kevm14:
..... And nothing passed me - I was pulling out into the snow lane to pass SUVs and AWDs

A few times I looked down and was going almost 80....that's what happens when I get the road to myself I guess.

Did you try an emergency stop at that speed? The key in snow is not how fast you go, anything will go fast, its how you can slow down and have lateral traction (around corners).

kevm14 · Dec 21, 2004

I just drove 120 miles in some pretty nasty conditions yesterday morning. I have 4 Dunlop Graspic DS-2 tires on my Camaro in 225/55 16 and I am pretty impressed with them. I was able to drive at speeds I really shouldn't have. And nothing passed me - I was pulling out into the snow lane to pass SUVs and AWDs

A few times I looked down and was going almost 80....that's what happens when I get the road to myself I guess.

srivett · Dec 21, 2004

When it comes to Motorcycles the best winter tire is the DOT Knobby Cheng Shin. I ran a set for two winters in Ottawa. The tires were new for the first winter so I just ran them as is. I could really boogie, my only big problem was trying to change tracks in the lanes. The slush would be a real hassle. If I was in 5" of snow going up hills slowly was a problem but I had the 4x4s beat so NOBODY could tailgate me, I was generally the fastest moving thing on the road during the winter. The wear was great at -40C but I put 1000 km them one summer day and that pretty much ruined them.

For the second winter I filled the tires with screws that just protruded past the tread. At first I couldn't turn but once the screws wore down life was even better than before. This setup was easily 10 times safer than driving my E150 in the winter. That pig heads for the ditch immediately IF you can get enough traction to get moving. If you put it in gear with the engine running it just starts doing donuts.

Cheers, Steve

kevm14 · Dec 21, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by rjundi:

quote:

Originally posted by kevm14:
..... And nothing passed me - I was pulling out into the snow lane to pass SUVs and AWDs

A few times I looked down and was going almost 80....that's what happens when I get the road to myself I guess.

Click to expand...

Did you try an emergency stop at that speed? The key in snow is not how fast you go, anything will go fast, its how you can slow down and have lateral traction (around corners).

Yeah, I tested the stopping and ABS performance countless times during the trip. Most of the time, the car stopped pretty well (for snow). I mean, I could come up on someone at 70 and slow down to their speed (45?) semi-normally. Ice is another story. I was on 95N by the CT shore and I came up on an expedition or something that had run off the road. A statee was there already. Well, all the trucks were slowing down, so I realized I needed to, since they were occupying all lanes (what's with this during storms??). I started to get on the ABS to slow down when the car started rotating. Turns out one side of the car was on ice and the other was on something better than ice. That was pretty neat...but I got it slowed down.

srivett · Jan 4, 2005

I finally got my Dunlop Graspic DS-1 tires on. For the second cheapest winter tire available they are great! They aren't any good on ice but that's to be expected. If you can't walk on it you shouldn't be driving on it either.

These tires give lots of warning before sliding and it is easy to regain full control. They stop the car really well and are quieter than my Bridgestone Touranza T all seasons. With the 155s my shoe print is wider than the tires I run but this doesn't appear to be a problem. If studded tires become legal in Ontario I would not hesitate to run these as summer tires to wear them out. My only complaint is the funny sound they make when you are slowing down. It sounds like your alternator belt is slipping but it's actually the tires.

Steve

1sttruck · Jan 5, 2005

srivett said: "They aren't any good on ice but that's to be expected. If you can't walk on it you shouldn't be driving on it either."

To which supreme being does one submit requests to insure that there will not be ice on the road after one leaves the house ? It sure doesn't appear to be the Christian God :^)

TheGreenPiston · Jan 5, 2005

Just got to try my new Nokian RSI winter tires these past few days. I was in a parking lot that had a nice layer of ice on it so I decided to see how well these puppies would stop. Got the car up to 20-25 mph and hit the brakes. To my suprise the car came to a very controled stop with no lock up or sliding sideways. Also they are very nice riding in the dry. I almost forget I have snow tires on. A nice tire plus I got a heck of a deal on them too!

98AV6 · Jan 7, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by doitmyself:
I have no argument against the validity of snow tires. They do their job as intended.
But......... with today's impatient drivers, would they instill a false sense of security and result in more accidents over all???
Experienced drivers farther up north are less likely to end up off the road. It's called SLOWING DOWN.

Not wanting to be the headline for the 11 oclock news, I drive according to the road conditions.

Just before Christmas during a ice storm here in TO , I was driving to work. At a safe and comfortable speed , I passed everything on the road with no slipping or sliding doing about 30 below the speed limit. The last group of cars I passed , one car decided to tag along behind me. After a while I guess I was driving too much like grandma, so he passed me. I gave it no thought, until a minute later there was movement from the car ahead.
Looking closer, I saw this guy was now going down the road sideways drivers side first. A split second later the back end swung right, now sideways 180 the other way. Finally the car slowed enough that he regained control without hitting anything.

I slowed, thinking he must have hit a slick spot.

Passed him, no problems. He was driving too fast on his crappy A/S Tires!

As I passed , he got behind me again and followed me meekly for a couple kms until his exit came up.

[ January 08, 2005, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: 98AV6 ]

JT · Jan 9, 2005

I live in the snow belt of NY state and have run snow tires religiously for the past 20 years. I currently have Firestone Winterforce on 3 cars, 2 Honda CRV's and a Honda Pilot. We haven't had much snow yet, but the few storms we have had the tires performed great.

Prior to the Winterforces I used Firestone WinterFires, these were discontinued last year. I've tried several sets of Blizzaks and coopers and BFG's, I prefer the Firestones. The tread blocks are larger and you don't get the squirmy feeling I had with the Blizzaks. I had a friend with a set of Blizzaks that last less than a week, he couldn't get use to the squirm caused by the small tall blocky tread. He's also a Firestone convert.

1sttruck · Jan 9, 2005

Finally found a set of 17in load range E winter tires for the truck, which were some studded Cooper Discoverer M+S. I was looking for some similar studded Nokian Hakka LT tires but no one had seen any yet. The Coopers drive well enough on pavement as I don't notice extra noise except for the studs at low speed, they seem to do well enough in rain, but some reviews indicate that tire life can be short on dry pavement. They seem to have decent voiding and tall tread blocks for mud and snow, lots of siping for rain and ice, studs for ice, channels for rain, and are supposed to be a low temp compound. They have a severe snow rating and seem popular in some areas with people who plow with their trucks.

1sttruck · Jan 9, 2005

We had some light snow fall on top of a bit of ice last night on the hills around here, including the one that we live on. Temps were just below freezing during the commute, making for slick conditions. The Michelin Arctic Alpins did fine on the older Taurus, no spin unless I goosed it from a stop. I put a couple of sand tubes in the bed of the truck and I still needed to put it in 4wd to get up the hill, but it did fine otherwise, with no sliding squirming. I have an open diff, which I prefer for winter conditions, as it just slips instead of breaking the rear end loose and kicking it around. I'll play around more with tire pressure and load in the bed, to see if I get by without 4wd on the hills.

Bror Jace · Jan 11, 2005

This is a favorite topic here at BITOG. It comes up every year and every year I throw my 2 cents into the mix. Actually, I’m surprised that it took me this long to find this thread.

drive it forever: “Good snow tires make a world of difference. When I lived in northeast Ohio, I had 4 Michelin Arctic Alpine's on my Honda Civic for wintertime. My car was as good in the snow as my brother’s Chevy S10 4WD. All-season tires don’t cut it in heavy snow ... It amazes me that so many people who live in the snow belt don’t realize how much better your vehicle can be with good snow tires compared to all-season tires.”

DJ: “I switched to high performance Z-rated tires for summer use on a larger rim, and used the old 15" rims for snows, the car handles better in all weather than it ever could have before providing I have the right set of tires on for the season.”

I couldn’t agree more.

I had a ‘95 Honda Civic with Nokia NR-10s on skinny, 13” rims and the thing was a veritable snowmobile as long as the snow didn’t get too deep or the hills (going up) didn’t get too steep. “All-season” tires are fine for all the seasons in Tennessee, Missouri, Nevada, Maryland, New Mexico, etc … but NOT the northern third of the US and Canada.

Now, driving a Nissan Sentra SE-R SpecV, my car came with Z-rated tires on 17” alloys … a perfect recipe for awful winter driving. And who wants to put their expensive alloys through all that abrasive sand and salt? I got 15” steelies and shod them with 195/65R15 studded Hakka 2s with and the car is simply amazing in the snow ... even with the FWD positraction working against you.

lyle: “So you put two snow tires on the front of your car, and left the rears stock? You're asking for trouble. What's going to happen is that your back end will try to swap ends with your front end around a curve or turn.”

Absolutely correct! I looped my aforementioned Civic a couple times when I had hastily put on just the front snows in anticipation of a very late-season storm. The front would grab and turn in but the rears wouldn’t, so around the car would go.

do it myself: ” I have no argument against the validity of snow tires. They do their job as intended. But, with today's impatient drivers, would they instill a false sense of security and result in more accidents over all? The first few snows here in lower Michigan you see lots of 4WD SUVs in the ditch. Experienced drivers farther up north are less likely to end up off the road. It's called SLOWING DOWN.”[/b]

For the most part, I couldn’t disagree more. Snow tires and the extra traction they provide give you OPTIONS. If you choose to drive too fast (guilty as charged

) that is an option. But, I have, on numerous times, also exercised my option of getting out of the way of some buckaroo bonzai as he/she goes spinning into the guard rails or plowing into other cars. But yes, most people (including myself) would be much better off slowing down some.

As far as all the comments (mostly deserved) about crashed 4WD/AWD vehicles, the main problem is with the skill-deprived drivers. 4WD/AWD is NOT the magic cure-all many people believe it to be. It merely allows you to get up to speed faster, but does nothing to help you steer or stop the vehicle any quicker. But those latter two performance parameters are EXACTLY what snow tires improve.

Actually, the extra weight associated with most SUVs makes steering and stopping them more difficult. Offsetting this a bit is the more aggressive tread pattern found on all-terrain tires which helps in the snow and slush ... but more and more SUVs seem to be leaving the factory with wide, smooth-riding, highway tires and so even that advantage is missing from many.

Women (and some men!) who buy SUVs because they are afraid of driving in snow are accidents waiting to happen. They would be much better off taking a car they are familiar with and putting a set of four good snow tires on it.

--- Bror Jace

1sttruck · Jan 11, 2005

Yeah, number of driven wheels and tire traction are different attributes. To people who disagree I ask if they recall seeing WWII footage of tanks sliding across the road.

You can break tire traction down, maybe into friction and 'compliance'. Water seems to make for slick roads by effectively making the road smooth, so that the tires can't 'grab' onto the irregularities in the road. With water on the road you just need to slow down to make it 'rough again', and on other rough surfaces you can sometimes gain traction by lowering air pressure in order to make the tire more compliant so that they' grab' better.

On smooth surfaces like ice you end up relying more on friction, studs aside, so less air pressure often doesn't help. On hard, cold ice a low temp tire compund and lots of siping help to produce as much compliance and friction as possible, but on 32F ice where water films start to develop chains and studs still work best.

If you can't get going without 4wd you should slow down as you still need to brake and corner and 4wd won't help as much with those activities.

kreigle · Jan 12, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by JT:
I currently have Firestone Winterforce on 3 cars, 2 Honda CRV's and a Honda Pilot.

It's a shame I can't find them to fit a Prelude.

TireRack lists only 3 snow tires for my car in tire size 185/65-14, and only 2 in the stock size of 195/60-14.

Blizzak WS-50
Dunlop Graspic DS-1
Dunlop Graspic DS-2 (185/65-14 only)

Any suggestions on Honda rim sizes I could substitute and get a snow tire to fit with the proper rolling diameter?

Jon · Jan 12, 2005

The Blizzak is fine, although the sidewalls are fairly thin, they wear fast, and after 50% wear they are only an "OK" winter tire.

I went Nokian and I'll never go back.
Call around for them, or go to Nokian's web site and try to find a local dealer. They are AMAZING.

You can also try tirefactory.net
or a few other online tire dealers to find the tires you want. Nothing against tire rack, they have good prices, but they don't have the best selection.

I went local for the tires and did very well.

rpn453 · Jan 12, 2005

I just put on some studded Cooper Weathermasters and they are a world of difference from the RS-A all-seasons I had. My car can now do all kinds of cool things, like go forward, stop, and turn!

Bror Jace · Jan 14, 2005

Jon: “The Blizzak is fine, although the sidewalls are fairly thin, they wear fast, and after 50% wear they are only an ‘OK’ winter tire. I went Nokian and I'll never go back. Call around for them, or go to Nokian's web site and try to find a local dealer. They are AMAZING.”

Again, I agree 100%.

I wouldn’t let the limited selection of the Tire Rack or some other e-tailer dictate what I bought ... although, others here confirm that even cheap snow tires are much better than 'no-seasons.'

Actually, I had heard this before about Blizzaks. Their highly touted ‘multi-cellular’ compound is soft and wears out quite quickly. First year, traction in snow is superb. Second year, not too bad but subsequent years are iffy at best as most of the advantages have literally been scrubbed off.

But I thought that was true only years ago. Anyone used them for the past 3+ years? Have they fixed this serious durability problem?

1sstruck: " ... I ask if they recall seeing WWII footage of tanks sliding across the road."

I assume you're talking about that footage of Sherman tanks sliding across the roads ... somewhere near Bastogne during the Ardennes offensive?

--- Bror Jace

Jon · Jan 15, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by rpn453:
I just put on some studded Cooper Weathermasters and they are a world of difference from the RS-A all-seasons I had. My car can now do all kinds of cool things, like go forward, stop, and turn!

I ran the Cooper Weathermasters (or WinterMasters, not sure which) for the fronts on my '92 Buick Roadmaster. They were very impressive for a tire that "looks" old-tech. I wouldn't hesitate for a moment in purchasing them again, if only for the fact that the Nokians are that much better, so far.

Winter Tires

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