Will MMO Make M1 0W-20 Too Light?

[Finz]

In reading thru BITOG, I've seen that some 0W-20 is lighter than others and I have a few questions:

1. I recall reading that M1 is on the heavier side. Is that when oil reaches operating temp or at start up or both?

2. I've used M1 0W-20 in both the 05 accord and 06 Odyssey since new. Recent oil change in Odyssey and used TGMO 0W-20. The difference at start up in terms of noise and there being no sluggishness is incredible.

3. I have a stash of M1 that I need to use up and am considering an MMO mixture in the accord. No apparent issues with the car, but I just want the lightest oil now that it's getting cooler and I figure an MMO cleaning certainly won't hurt anything

4. Is there any way to determine if a 20% or 25% mix with MMO will develop too light an oil?

The car is used for short runs (I keep it running when possible) except for a monthly shot down to Philly... About 200 miles R/T all highway

Some car specs: 160,000 miles on the car. 2.4L 4 cylinder. Car rarely sees anything over 2,500 rpm. May sit for a day or 2 without being run and a solid 5 minute warm up when starting. Only recently (last 2,500 miles or so) have I noticed the infamous Honda ticking starting... I haven't checked/adjusted valves yet. 5,000 OCIs with Fram Tough Guard or Pure Oil every change. No oil loss at all. PCV replaced routinely along with air filter (which I've learned I've been changing too frequently). Lucas UCL user until recently when I started a TC-W3 regime

These Honda engines are great and, as stated, no problems at all with the car. I just want to be proactive and keep ahead of the game

Thoughts?

By the way, I'm a strong proponent of MMO. That said, please keep the snake oil comments to a minimum... They're fun to read but do get boring when repeated over and over

Many thanks in advance....

 

[Donald]

Given where you live I doubt any xW20 oil is too heavy. Your in NJ not Maine or Canada.


Remember MMO is a best a cleaner, its lubrication properties are poor. I would not go anything close to 20% or 25%.

 

[NothingNew]

I can't see running 20% or 25% MMO along with a 0W-20. Your best bet for calculating is to find the VOA for MMO and the oil you plan on running. Then you can figure out the approximate specs of your frankenbrew.

If you're really intent on running MMO you might want to run only 10% or so. Also, why the 5 minute warmup?

 

[Quest]

I wouldn't even think of adding MMO and the likes to upset an otherwise balanced formulation like PU or M1.

Esp. if you believe MMO has cleaning abilities, they why let it upset the additive packages in your oil?

If you believe MMO has thinning properties, then why let it upset the otherwise chemically-superior base oil (in syn such as M1, PU, etc.)?

Q.

 

[Finz]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Given where you live I doubt any xW20 oil is too heavy. Your in NJ not Maine or Canada.


Remember MMO is a best a cleaner, its lubrication properties are poor. I would not go anything close to 20% or 25%.


Donald: thank you. I would have agreed with you on the oil weight prior to using TGMO I the Odyssey but since then, I have no doubt that the lighter oil made a significant difference

By the way, tactfully done with regard to snake oil,,, LOL

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Finz
By the way, I'm a strong proponent of MMO. That said, please keep the snake oil comments to a minimum... They're fun to read but do get boring when repeated over and over


I would not use MMO to thin other oil. Try to use the correct weight of oil to start with. Another user noted your New Jersey location - any of the oil weights you mentioned should work fine.

MMO contains a large percentage of solvent. It does lubricate but it does other things as well. Normally, 1 quart added to the oil or added part-way through an oil change is all that is needed for the solvent content to work.

 

[Finz]

Originally Posted By: NothingNew
I can't see running 20% or 25% MMO along with a 0W-20. Your best bet for calculating is to find the VOA for MMO and the oil you plan on running. Then you can figure out the approximate specs of your frankenbrew.

If you're really intent on running MMO you might want to run only 10% or so. Also, why the 5 minute warmup?


Thank you NothingNew... Good call on the VOAs...

With regard to 5 minute warm up, I live in a valley and the only out of here is to head up some hills... I want to give the car a few minutes to get the juices flowing and warmed a bit before putting the car under load

 

[Finz]

Originally Posted By: Quest
I wouldn't even think of adding MMO and the likes to upset an otherwise balanced formulation like PU or M1.

Esp. if you believe MMO has cleaning abilities, they why let it upset the additive packages in your oil?

If you believe MMO has thinning properties, then why let it upset the otherwise chemically-superior base oil (in syn such as M1, PU, etc.)?

Q.


LOL Quest... Teetering on that snake oil line but I appreciate the feedback.

No question the M1s and PP/PU products have top notch add packs but I figure with 160k miles a little something extra wouldn't hurt... Might even be warranted .

Is this a good analogy? Laundry detergents do a good job. But every once in a while a shot of Clorox in the whites makes a real difference.

With proper dosage and so many grand testimonials, not to mention my own experiences, I have little doubt the gentle cleaning would be of some benefit

The thinning properties are exactly what I am after... Granted, I'm not going to see -40 or anything, but I will get to single digits come February and, if I can lessen the strain to some degree, I would think that to be a good thing.

 

[fdcg27]

M1 0W-20 is fine all by itself for this car, for which Honda thought that any 5W-20 conventional was just fine.
I personally would not add MMO to any oil just to thin it.
I'd try it with a heavier grade if I thought an engine needed some cleaning, although any engine that I've ever owned stayed clean with no more than routine oil changes.
In short, my advice would be to skip the MMO.
You'd likely end up with a blend that would be far too low in viscosity.

 

[Finz]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: Finz
By the way, I'm a strong proponent of MMO. That said, please keep the snake oil comments to a minimum... They're fun to read but do get boring when repeated over and over


I would not use MMO to thin other oil. Try to use the correct weight of oil to start with. Another user noted your New Jersey location - any of the oil weights you mentioned should work fine.

MMO contains a large percentage of solvent. It does lubricate but it does other things as well. Normally, 1 quart added to the oil or added part-way through an oil change is all that is needed for the solvent content to work.


Dave:

I hope I'm not coming across as having already made up my mind as I appreciate all the comments. I have read that MMO does thin an oil to degree and I have recently noticed a tremendous difference in switching from M1 to TGMO in the Odyssey as the TGMO is lighter

I'm looking to go thinner but have some M1 to use up

I also like the idea of more dedicated cleaning oil fill every once in a while

I'm a little afraid of the 25% mixture in my 4.5 qt sump but want to make sure I use enough to utilize the product's usage

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: Finz


Donald: thank you. I would have agreed with you on the oil weight prior to using TGMO I the Odyssey but since then, I have no doubt that the lighter oil made a significant difference

By the way, tactfully done with regard to snake oil,,, LOL



I am not sure how you qualify "made a significant difference". If you mean at startup it sounded better or turned faster that may be, but with the engine fully warmed up you do not want the oil too thin or it will not handle the lubrication job properly. And that you may not be able to qualify for many miles and only then after engine disassembly.

 

[gathermewool]

Please don't take offense, but realistically, the incredible difference you mention simply isn't possible. Inferring from what you've already garnered doesn't mean you should extrapolate out to, "slightly thinner means incredible difference, so I should thin oil I believe to be thicker so I can have more of the same."

 

[Finz]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
M1 0W-20 is fine all by itself for this car, for which Honda thought that any 5W-20 conventional was just fine.
I personally would not add MMO to any oil just to thin it.
I'd try it with a heavier grade if I thought an engine needed some cleaning, although any engine that I've ever owned stayed clean with no more than routine oil changes.
In short, my advice would be to skip the MMO.
You'd likely end up with a blend that would be far too low in viscosity.


That's exactly what I'm concerned about.

I suppose I have no choice but to pour thru the VOA posts and look for a report... I stink at searching and with my fat fingers on this iPad, it makes it doubly hard.

... Wish I wasn't so stubborn

 

[Finz]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: Finz


Donald: thank you. I would have agreed with you on the oil weight prior to using TGMO I the Odyssey but since then, I have no doubt that the lighter oil made a significant difference

By the way, tactfully done with regard to snake oil,,, LOL



I am not sure how you qualify "made a significant difference". If you mean at startup it sounded better or turned faster that may be, but with the engine fully warmed up you do not want the oil too thin or it will not handle the lubrication job properly. And that you may not be able to qualify for many miles and only then after engine disassembly.


Exactly that... Since adding the TGMO, I literally have to pay attention and focus so I can hear the engine. Prior to that, I could hear the car at cold idle easily As is the case with the accord, the car is used for short runs with the occasional highway use.

In both cases, with few exceptions, I'm sorry to say that neither reaches operating temps often

I have to say Thank you to all again... This, for me, is a very insightful and civil thread.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: Finz
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
M1 0W-20 is fine all by itself for this car, for which Honda thought that any 5W-20 conventional was just fine.
I personally would not add MMO to any oil just to thin it.
I'd try it with a heavier grade if I thought an engine needed some cleaning, although any engine that I've ever owned stayed clean with no more than routine oil changes.
In short, my advice would be to skip the MMO.
You'd likely end up with a blend that would be far too low in viscosity.


That's exactly what I'm concerned about.

I suppose I have no choice but to pour thru the VOA posts and look for a report... I stink at searching and with my fat fingers on this iPad, it makes it doubly hard.

... Wish I wasn't so stubborn


Use a quality 0-20W like M1, forget the VOA, go to Starbucks have a coffee and ponder the world series, not oil VOAs. A VOA is just that, unused oil. It may change in 1000 miles.

 

[Finz]

Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Please don't take offense, but realistically, the incredible difference you mention simply isn't possible. Inferring from what you've already garnered doesn't mean you should extrapolate out to, "slightly thinner means incredible difference, so I should thin oil I believe to be thicker so I can have more of the same."


Not offended in the least Gathermewool....but I'm not sure I follow your logic - at least as it pertains to my application

The Odyssey's V6 loved the thinner TGMO. I can hear and feel the difference.

Granted the 4 cylinder is a different engine but with short hops being the norm coupled with my light foot while driving, should I be overly concerned about the viscosity at operating temps? Aside from the obvious, of course

 

[Finz]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: Finz
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
M1 0W-20 is fine all by itself for this car, for which Honda thought that any 5W-20 conventional was just fine.
I personally would not add MMO to any oil just to thin it.
I'd try it with a heavier grade if I thought an engine needed some cleaning, although any engine that I've ever owned stayed clean with no more than routine oil changes.
In short, my advice would be to skip the MMO.
You'd likely end up with a blend that would be far too low in viscosity.


That's exactly what I'm concerned about.

I suppose I have no choice but to pour thru the VOA posts and look for a report... I stink at searching and with my fat fingers on this iPad, it makes it doubly hard.

... Wish I wasn't so stubborn


Use a quality 0-20W like M1, forget the VOA, go to Starbucks have a coffee and ponder the world series, not oil VOAs. A VOA is just that, unused oil. It may change in 1000 miles.


LMAO... now there's a debate worth having which is FAR more prevalent than the thin vs thick: Dunkin donuts or Starbucks...???

 

[gathermewool]

That's my point of contention: one time does not equal a pattern and the differences you're experiencing, theoretically, should be negligible and imperceptible.

Case in point, there were days and even weeks where my old sporty car seemed to have more boost and even drive better. I would even notice these better days or weeks after changing from an XW-30 to an XW-40. Any noise differences, before and after, have usually been attributable to the oil filter. My STI seemed to sound better at cold start using the OEM H6 filter than the OEM STI filter.

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: Finz
Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: Finz
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
M1 0W-20 is fine all by itself for this car, for which Honda thought that any 5W-20 conventional was just fine.
I personally would not add MMO to any oil just to thin it.
I'd try it with a heavier grade if I thought an engine needed some cleaning, although any engine that I've ever owned stayed clean with no more than routine oil changes.
In short, my advice would be to skip the MMO.
You'd likely end up with a blend that would be far too low in viscosity.


That's exactly what I'm concerned about.

I suppose I have no choice but to pour thru the VOA posts and look for a report... I stink at searching and with my fat fingers on this iPad, it makes it doubly hard.

... Wish I wasn't so stubborn


Use a quality 0-20W like M1, forget the VOA, go to Starbucks have a coffee and ponder the world series, not oil VOAs. A VOA is just that, unused oil. It may change in 1000 miles.


LMAO... now there's a debate worth having which is FAR more prevalent than the thin vs thick: Dunkin donuts or Starbucks...???


I grew up on DF coffee. I'm not sure whether they changed their beans, roasters or Brewers, but today DD coffee is terrible. I only drink it while traveling, since it's usually the only place open at 0400.

Starbucks has a few brews that are tasty enough (Pike's Place).

Both are over-priced, but still cheaper than their foo foo drinks!

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: Finz
Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: Finz


Donald: thank you. I would have agreed with you on the oil weight prior to using TGMO I the Odyssey but since then, I have no doubt that the lighter oil made a significant difference

By the way, tactfully done with regard to snake oil,,, LOL




I am not sure how you qualify "made a significant difference". If you mean at startup it sounded better or turned faster that may be, but with the engine fully warmed up you do not want the oil too thin or it will not handle the lubrication job properly. And that you may not be able to qualify for many miles and only then after engine disassembly.


Exactly that... Since adding the TGMO, I literally have to pay attention and focus so I can hear the engine. Prior to that, I could hear the car at cold idle easily As is the case with the accord, the car is used for short runs with the occasional highway use.

In both cases, with few exceptions, I'm sorry to say that neither reaches operating temps often

I have to say Thank you to all again... This, for me, is a very insightful and civil thread.


You may also get fuel dilution from the engine not getting to operating temps which will thin the oil also.