Why not 20wt oils in....non-turbo German engines?

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Originally Posted By: BigJohn
By the way, I was talking to my buddy tonight (the guy that lived in Germany for four years). I didn't know this, but from the day they purchased their 2003 Passat (1.8L Turbo), it has had a steady diet of Jiffy Lube 5w30 dino!!!!! Today, the car is running like a horse and it has 140,000 miles on it.

By the way, do some research and you will find out that a lot of those Passat and A4 1.8T engines suffered from sludge issues because mineral oil was ran in them. VoA/AoA even extended power train warranties as a result, if I'm not mistaken. Your buddy is very lucky if his engine did not sludge up.

What are you trying to gain by running a 20-weight oil as opposed to a 30- or a 40-weight? Please don't tell me it's about fuel economy as the difference would be miniscule.
 
I`ve always wondered what it is about synths that make them more immune to sludge issues. Is it the synthetic base stocks, superior additives,or both?
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I`ve always wondered what it is about synths that make them more immune to sludge issues. Is it the synthetic base stocks, superior additives,or both?

It's mainly the more temperature-stable base stocks and little or no VIIs that causes them to be more resistant to coking and deposit formation when exposed to very high temps, such as those that exist when you're dealing with a turbocharger.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
By the way, I was talking to my buddy tonight (the guy that lived in Germany for four years). I didn't know this, but from the day they purchased their 2003 Passat (1.8L Turbo), it has had a steady diet of Jiffy Lube 5w30 dino!!!!! Today, the car is running like a horse and it has 140,000 miles on it.

By the way, do some research and you will find out that a lot of those Passat and A4 1.8T engines suffered from sludge issues because mineral oil was ran in them. VoA/AoA even extended power train warranties as a result, if I'm not mistaken. Your buddy is very lucky if his engine did not sludge up.

What are you trying to gain by running a 20-weight oil as opposed to a 30- or a 40-weight? Please don't tell me it's about fuel economy as the difference would be miniscule.



I don't see how an engine could sludge up any decent, dino motor oil in 3,000 miles. Remember that the Jiffy Lubes of the world promote 3k OCI's and that is what my buddy has done for the past 6+ years.

I am not trying to run a 20wt. I am simply curious why the vast differences between Honda, Ford, VW, Audi, BMW, etc......


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Quote:
I don't see how an engine could sludge up any decent, dino motor oil in 3,000 miles. Remember that the Jiffy Lubes of the world promote 3k OCI's and that is what my buddy has done for the past 6+ years.


This is probably true ..more or less. I think many (probably not all) sludge issues were ignorant owners running ANY oil for the specified OCI. They didn't want to spend $15-$20/quart for VW/Audi dealer oil ...because ..oil is oil, right?

Every 10k ..Jiffylube complete! (imagine me tapping on whatever the guy did when he said that).
 
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
I don't see how an engine could sludge up any decent, dino motor oil in 3,000 miles. Remember that the Jiffy Lubes of the world promote 3k OCI's and that is what my buddy has done for the past 6+ years.

He might be very kind to his car.

Either way, doesn't VW spec longer than 3k mile OCIs? Surely the OCI and the oil spec go hand-in-hand.
wink.gif



Originally Posted By: BigJohn
I am not trying to run a 20wt. I am simply curious why the vast differences between Honda, Ford, VW, Audi, BMW, etc......

Honda, Ford: For low running costs, easy maintenance, less money per maintenance episode, and fairly easy driving. Hence, cheap oil and moderate OCIs.

VW: For people who are willing to spend a bit more time and money, and who have a little more fun with their cars. Hence, moderately expensive oil and moderate OCIs.

Audi, BMW: For people who have fewer qualms about shelling out more money at a time, are apt to forget about maintenance unless nannied by a light on the dash, and expect performance from their cars. Hence, very expensive oil and long OCIs.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
I don't see how an engine could sludge up any decent, dino motor oil in 3,000 miles. Remember that the Jiffy Lubes of the world promote 3k OCI's and that is what my buddy has done for the past 6+ years.


This is probably true ..more or less. I think many (probably not all) sludge issues were ignorant owners running ANY oil for the specified OCI. They didn't want to spend $15-$20/quart for VW/Audi dealer oil ...because ..oil is oil, right?

Every 10k ..Jiffylube complete! (imagine me tapping on whatever the guy did when he said that).


Good point. See following the 3k mile oil change myth has it's value. And who would've guessed it'd be most applicable for a European vehicle
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One of the reasons VAG specs xw40 and xw30 (synthetic and of the proper grade) is to facilitate the maximum allowable interval of 20K to 30K miles (depends on engine and fuel) that exists in Europe.
 
The oil used also must be able to handle high speeds for long periods of time. Don't try that with a dino oil. European cars have been synthetic only for a long time for good reason.
 
The VW Rabbit is called the VW Golf overhere.
Not sold here with the I5, the I5 is not even listed on the German VW site.

As far as the official VW oil recommendation: follow the manual.

I've been browsing through some Dutch VW fora, most use a 30 or 40 weight, with the comment "As long as it has the VW 50x spec it must be allright".
Most also complain about the price (18 Euro/liter) but add: "you only have to change it out every 30k km."

IMO any stay-in-grade 30 weight will work in the Golf/Rabbit.
If your 5W-40 shears into a 30 weight you're probably allright.
If your 3W-30 shears into a 20 weight... I donno.

Once again I have to say: Europe is not all AutoBahn where one is allowed to drive as fast as one wants for hours on end.
As mentioned before the higher spec is to make sure it goes the OCI distance/time that is recommended in the manual.
 
Germany is about 16.7% of Europe (in area)
About 55% of the total lenght of the German Autobahn (or better: Bundesautobahn) is restricted now.
One of the longest remaining stretches of unlimited Autobahn is the A8 from Stuttgard to Munich, approximately 200 km.
So yes, if you daily commute is from Stuttgard to Munich you could drive flat out for 400 km every day.
(hmmmmmm......
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)
And I'll bet some actually do, in MB's, BMW's, Audi's and the like.

In the rest (83.3%) of Europe this is not the case though.

Would the Rabbit in question survive this daily flat out commute on a 20 weight?
Fow a while, sure.
Would it last forever on a 40 weight?
I don't think so.

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The point I'm trying to make is German cars are MADE to drive that fast and are designed accordingly. The same things that make this happen also extend the oil interval for those not going all out
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It would last hundreds of thousands of km (no engine lasts forever) with the correct oil and maintenance, even at 250 km/h.
 
They are not German motors the motors are made in Mexico, trans believe it or not Argentina some of the ole guys are hanging around still.
 
If I lived in Germany I'd likely be running a high VI 40wt.
I don't and my Bimmer isn't the car I track so I believe I'm getting better overall lubrication running a quality syn 20wt which I change frequently because oil is cheap and I've got to get through my stash some how.
 
I don't think any tolerance plays a part of the 20w oils at all, I will agree that very few times is a tolerance what so many people thing it is ( as JB said) and that today's engines have pretty much the same tolerance as the ones of yester year (or 10) in fact with CNC machines you very well could get away with wider margin for tolerance (read more tolerance) and the overall tolerance (stacked, all being the same, whatever you would like to call it)when parts begin to mate being they are all the same or very close compared to many years ago.

Now just to show how far we have come, we have in fact come a long way as to be able to produce many parts with footprint being very close or the same meaning that you have 200,000 parts with a tolerance of =/- .05 and they will all be at =.02 - +.04 compare to before the parts would be all over from -.03 - +.05 Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to explain in detail that. Also we have had the capability to produce long production runs of parts with tolerances rivaling CNC machines with things like screw machines, and other cam, hydraulic, and many other types of machines. As for the old US built machines that built those parts, they were built far superior to what is being pumped out today, those old manual machines were built like a tank, and stood up to the test of time... a true American art (the old machines used to make the car parts, motors etc) that is all gone.
 
Originally Posted By: finnautti
Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
Germany is about 16.7% of Europe (in area)
It's actually less than 4%.

We are both wrong.
http://www.europa-nu.nl/9353000/1/j9vvh6nf08temv0/vhc6kugxblyk
According to this website its 8.1%
I was looking in the wrong column.

It also depends on what you call "Europe", the data on that website is most likely correct though.

Besides, I don't think cars designed in Germany are any different than cars designed in the rest of Europe/World in the same price range, when it comes to the ability to withstand high speeds for prolonged times.
The "in the same price range" might look like an escape, I think its not fair to compare a Fiat 500 with a MB S350.
Compare the Rabbit/Golf with a Ford Focus, Mazda3, Toyota Corolla, Peugeot 3xx, Citroen ?, Civic and they will be pretty equal.
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Originally Posted By: JAG
To know the answer, the engines' parts' design and dimensions must be known, among other things like expected bulk and local oil temperatures during the range of expected operating conditions. We are unlikely to have that data presented here. Even if we did, anywhere from none to very few members here would be able to do much analysis on it.


..but it would be fun to speculate and "imagine" that we know enough...
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