why is the international 6.0 and 6.4 bad?
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My take on it is that they are way to complicated. I've got a 6.0 that has been to a half dozen shops and Ford, replaced lots of parts, and I'm finally finding the probable problem through the internet. People don't understand what sends what message to what component, sort of like the chicken and the egg. 6 mechanics have town the injectors down, others have wanted to take apart or replace the computer and pcm. I'm now discovered that the HPOP does not build pressure, so it correctly tells the computer to shut down the injectors.
I don't know why they are bad but I do know ford called them unfit for emergency vehicle (ambulance) use.
Whatever it was, I read that Ford had over a billion dollars in warranty claims with International on these engines.
Seems like they had a catching-on-fire issue? Or was that an older problem?
The 6.0L are a completely different engine than the 6.4L despite what Jimmy Joe Bob says. From my experiences the ppl who [censored] about 6.0L have a very poor maintenance attitude, these engines are hard on oil period! use good oil and please please change your fuel filters!!!! 03 and 04 models had some issues we all know that. The 6.4L's..... I've been changing injectors like crazy and updating ecm's. they have a large fail rate due to injector Sticksion issues.
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Originally Posted By: widman
My take on it is that they are way to complicated. I've got a 6.0 that has been to a half dozen shops and Ford, replaced lots of parts, and I'm finally finding the probable problem through the internet. People don't understand what sends what message to what component, sort of like the chicken and the egg. 6 mechanics have town the injectors down, others have wanted to take apart or replace the computer and pcm. I'm now discovered that the HPOP does not build pressure, so it correctly tells the computer to shut down the injectors.
It does not tell the ecm to shut down injectors, it simply can't build any pressure to be able to fire them. your issue could be an IPR, branch tubes, branch tube adapter, branch T, or a failed HPOP. its usually an IPR or branch tube adapter. In the older engines the used a heavy duty version of a high pressure clip on style adapter, like the ones found on gas cars with a little round spring. The updated version is actually bolted on with proper fitting's. special tools are required to achieve proper torque and alignment.
My take on it is that they are way to complicated. I've got a 6.0 that has been to a half dozen shops and Ford, replaced lots of parts, and I'm finally finding the probable problem through the internet. People don't understand what sends what message to what component, sort of like the chicken and the egg. 6 mechanics have town the injectors down, others have wanted to take apart or replace the computer and pcm. I'm now discovered that the HPOP does not build pressure, so it correctly tells the computer to shut down the injectors.
It does not tell the ecm to shut down injectors, it simply can't build any pressure to be able to fire them. your issue could be an IPR, branch tubes, branch tube adapter, branch T, or a failed HPOP. its usually an IPR or branch tube adapter. In the older engines the used a heavy duty version of a high pressure clip on style adapter, like the ones found on gas cars with a little round spring. The updated version is actually bolted on with proper fitting's. special tools are required to achieve proper torque and alignment.
Originally Posted By: BGK
Whatever it was, I read that Ford had over a billion dollars in warranty claims with International on these engines.
It was something like that. Ford has dropped International engines and I don't blame them one bit. I would not buy a new super Duty with a 6.4L I am curious though about their new engine, ppl are remaining tight lipped about it, even a few buddies of mine that work for Ford. Oh and btw I think Ford is still paying them due to contract issues, not sure about it, its just what I heard.
Whatever it was, I read that Ford had over a billion dollars in warranty claims with International on these engines.
It was something like that. Ford has dropped International engines and I don't blame them one bit. I would not buy a new super Duty with a 6.4L I am curious though about their new engine, ppl are remaining tight lipped about it, even a few buddies of mine that work for Ford. Oh and btw I think Ford is still paying them due to contract issues, not sure about it, its just what I heard.
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The Scorpion engine from Ford should be promising.
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For better or worse (and I pray for the former), here is the replacement:
Quote:
Codenamed “Scorpion,” the 6.7-liter PSD is Ford’s first-ever designed-in-house pickup truck diesel engine since the first oil burner (International’s 6.9-liter V-8) was offered under the hood of a Ford pickup in 1982.
“This was a global effort within Ford to create this engine,” Gryglak said. “We applied many of the lessons learned from Ford’s European operations.”
Ford’s road to the Scorpion has been long and winding. The 6.7-liter PSD is the third all-new heavy duty diesel engine in 7 years and the fourth since production of the 7.3-liter Power Stroke ended in 2002.
*snip*
Full article here:
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/08/fir...sel-engine.html
Quote:
Codenamed “Scorpion,” the 6.7-liter PSD is Ford’s first-ever designed-in-house pickup truck diesel engine since the first oil burner (International’s 6.9-liter V-8) was offered under the hood of a Ford pickup in 1982.
“This was a global effort within Ford to create this engine,” Gryglak said. “We applied many of the lessons learned from Ford’s European operations.”
Ford’s road to the Scorpion has been long and winding. The 6.7-liter PSD is the third all-new heavy duty diesel engine in 7 years and the fourth since production of the 7.3-liter Power Stroke ended in 2002.
*snip*
Full article here:
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/08/fir...sel-engine.html
Sounds like a awesome engine. Lets hope it does better than these navistar engines. Although I am dishartened at the use of urea. Sounds annoying.
Why did Ford kill off the 7.3 diesel if it was doing so well?
Could not get it to meet emissions regulations.
Originally Posted By: wirelessF
Why did Ford kill off the 7.3 diesel if it was doing so well?
Because Navistar quit building it.
The answer to your next question is, "I have NO clue whatsoever why Navistar quit building it, but I suspect more accountants than engineers were involved in the decision ."
I hope the Scorpion turns out good... but I have so many bad memories of the GM 5.7 nd 6.2 that I really question why an automaker would ever consider taking on the task of designing an in-house medium duty diesel when there are so many good ones to choose from. Cummins and Isuzu are already involved with the competition, but there's Cat, Detroit, Benz, Perkins, and others.
Why did Ford kill off the 7.3 diesel if it was doing so well?
Because Navistar quit building it.
The answer to your next question is, "I have NO clue whatsoever why Navistar quit building it, but I suspect more accountants than engineers were involved in the decision ."
I hope the Scorpion turns out good... but I have so many bad memories of the GM 5.7 nd 6.2 that I really question why an automaker would ever consider taking on the task of designing an in-house medium duty diesel when there are so many good ones to choose from. Cummins and Isuzu are already involved with the competition, but there's Cat, Detroit, Benz, Perkins, and others.
Originally Posted By: Onmo'Eegusee
Could not get it to meet emissions regulations.
That's an easy answer to toss out, but its not really true. The basic structure of the engine was proven, and you can get ANY engine bottom end (except maybe an old Detroit 2-stroke) to meet emissions with enough modification to the parts that handle the fuel and air: heads, manifolding, cam/valve train, ECM, injectors, turbo, etc. All that would have been a "bolt on" solution to making the 7.3L block and rotating assembly continue serving well as far into the future as they would have wanted. But it wouldn't have been cheap, and it was apparently decided that an all-new, smaller, and unproven design would be more profitable than spending the money/design effort on upgrading the 7.3. Obviously that didn't turn out to be true in this case.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-innovation and the idea of making the whole package smaller and lighter has some merit.... IF you don't cut too many corners on the new design. And truth be told, they could have made mistakes on the new emission-compliant fuel system for the 7.3 that would have caused the same problems with it. But it seems less probable to me.
Could not get it to meet emissions regulations.
That's an easy answer to toss out, but its not really true. The basic structure of the engine was proven, and you can get ANY engine bottom end (except maybe an old Detroit 2-stroke) to meet emissions with enough modification to the parts that handle the fuel and air: heads, manifolding, cam/valve train, ECM, injectors, turbo, etc. All that would have been a "bolt on" solution to making the 7.3L block and rotating assembly continue serving well as far into the future as they would have wanted. But it wouldn't have been cheap, and it was apparently decided that an all-new, smaller, and unproven design would be more profitable than spending the money/design effort on upgrading the 7.3. Obviously that didn't turn out to be true in this case.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-innovation and the idea of making the whole package smaller and lighter has some merit.... IF you don't cut too many corners on the new design. And truth be told, they could have made mistakes on the new emission-compliant fuel system for the 7.3 that would have caused the same problems with it. But it seems less probable to me.
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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: wirelessF
Why did Ford kill off the 7.3 diesel if it was doing so well?
Because Navistar quit building it.
The answer to your next question is, "I have NO clue whatsoever why Navistar quit building it, but I suspect more accountants than engineers were involved in the decision ."
I hope the Scorpion turns out good... but I have so many bad memories of the GM 5.7 nd 6.2 that I really question why an automaker would ever consider taking on the task of designing an in-house medium duty diesel when there are so many good ones to choose from. Cummins and Isuzu are already involved with the competition, but there's Cat, Detroit, Benz, Perkins, and others.
Comically, GM owned Detroit Diesel at that time, and those engines wore a Detroit/Alison badge on the valve cover.
Regardless, this engine is a ground-up development using technology Ford has successfully used in Europe for their diesel engines there.
As for GM, I cannot see how one could expect that putting diesel heads on a 400 small block was going to work out well in terms of reliability. And go figure, it didn't.
Originally Posted By: wirelessF
Why did Ford kill off the 7.3 diesel if it was doing so well?
Because Navistar quit building it.
The answer to your next question is, "I have NO clue whatsoever why Navistar quit building it, but I suspect more accountants than engineers were involved in the decision ."
I hope the Scorpion turns out good... but I have so many bad memories of the GM 5.7 nd 6.2 that I really question why an automaker would ever consider taking on the task of designing an in-house medium duty diesel when there are so many good ones to choose from. Cummins and Isuzu are already involved with the competition, but there's Cat, Detroit, Benz, Perkins, and others.
Comically, GM owned Detroit Diesel at that time, and those engines wore a Detroit/Alison badge on the valve cover.
Regardless, this engine is a ground-up development using technology Ford has successfully used in Europe for their diesel engines there.
As for GM, I cannot see how one could expect that putting diesel heads on a 400 small block was going to work out well in terms of reliability. And go figure, it didn't.
Ive heard Cat isnt going to build on-road diesels anymore after MY2009. Otherwise I would have liked to have seen a Cat in a Ford.
Originally Posted By: robshelton
Seems like they had a catching-on-fire issue? Or was that an older problem?
You would think Ford would have had enough of things catching fire.
John
Seems like they had a catching-on-fire issue? Or was that an older problem?
You would think Ford would have had enough of things catching fire.
John
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I hope the Scorpion turns out good... but I have so many bad memories of the GM 5.7 nd 6.2 that I really question why an automaker would ever consider taking on the task of designing an in-house medium duty diesel when there are so many good ones to choose from.
The new Ford diesel is going to be interesting. It will be made in Mexico. That might not make it a bad engine, but sometimes things happen when engineering and manufacturing are quite a few miles apart.
I hope the Scorpion turns out good... but I have so many bad memories of the GM 5.7 nd 6.2 that I really question why an automaker would ever consider taking on the task of designing an in-house medium duty diesel when there are so many good ones to choose from.
The new Ford diesel is going to be interesting. It will be made in Mexico. That might not make it a bad engine, but sometimes things happen when engineering and manufacturing are quite a few miles apart.
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