Why/how is motorcycle oil unique? Mobil 1 0w40 in my ATV?

[HangFire]

A quick inspection of the cST of Energy Conserving oils and non-EC oils at temps well above 212F/100C is eye opening...

Even within a grade (let's say 40W) the Energy Conserving oils tend to have cST on the lower end of acceptable range, and non-EC on the higher end. That gap only widens up as temps get higher and higher.

As long as the wear parts of your air-cooled engine stays within 212F/100C, then you're right, there's no wear difference.

 

[Zack1978]

Thank you everyone! Based upon many of the responses, I will stick to a motorcycle/ATV specific oil.

 

[KrisZ]

Thank you everyone! Based upon many of the responses, I will stick to a motorcycle/ATV specific oil.

Bitog is a funny place, and people simply repeat whatever is popular. JASO seems to be the “holy” grail for wet clutches apparently. Nobody knows how or by what mechanism, but hey it says for wet clutches so every wet clutch must have it.

Personally I would just use diesel oil in 15w40 flavor and call it a day, but if that motorcycle picture on the bottle makes you feel better, go with it.

 

[MotoTribologist]

Nobody knows how or by what mechanism

What makes you think that? Many people know how and by what mechanism. It is spelled out specifically through the specification and the test method.

SAE #2 Friction Testing

 

[KrisZ]

What makes you think that? Many people know how and by what mechanism. It is spelled out specifically through the specification and the test method.

SAE #2 Friction Testing

It’s an automatic transmission test, nice try. Where is JASO test methodology with a wet clutch system? Why isn’t there a motorcycle oil standard?

JASO simply came into being as energy conserving automotive oils started to become popular. These are heavily friction modified and can pose a problem with wet clutches. But that’s pretty much the extent of JASO, they just look at certain friction characteristics, without testing against a standardized wet clutch system.

Heavy duty oils are not energy conserving and will work without problems despite lacking JASO cert.

 

[MotoTribologist]

It’s an automatic transmission test, nice try. Where is JASO test methodology with a wet clutch system? Why isn’t there a motorcycle oil standard?

JASO simply came into being as energy conserving automotive oils started to become popular. These are heavily friction modified and can pose a problem with wet clutches. But that’s pretty much the extent of JASO, they just look at certain friction characteristics, without testing against a standardized wet clutch system.

Heavy duty oils are not energy conserving and will work without problems despite lacking JASO cert.

 

[KrisZ]

Show me a JASO wet clutch test, not an automatic transmission wet clutch test. Then we can discuss the mechanisms “many people” understand. Not sure who is that though. Is that “many people” on BITOG or somewhere else?

 

[MotoTribologist]

Show me a JASO wet clutch test, not an automatic transmission wet clutch test. Then we can discuss the mechanisms “many people” understand. Not sure who is that though. Is that “many people” on BITOG or somewhere else?

SAE #2 Friction Testing

Both BITOG users and other people in the wide wide world.

 

[KrisZ]

Both BITOG users and other people in the wide wide world.

Is that the test JASO uses? Did you read JASO cert requirements?

 

[HangFire]

JASO is the Japanese analog of SAE, sets its own standards, of course there is some mutual recognition and cooperation.

The test regimen of JASO MA/MB is the "JASO T 904:2006 clutch system friction test", at least according to this:

JASO MA and JASO MB classifications - oilspecifications.org

www.oilspecifications.org

And... here's the document:

https://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV1904.pdf

 

[KrisZ]

Yes, that’s the document for JASO. All they want is dynamic/static friction characteristics and stop time index. Nowhere do they state how these are obtained nor cite an SAE test for it or some other equivalent. Do you know how these are obtained? Does anyone else on BITOG? There are no units there just a range index. Do you know what the index represents?

You claim this is common knowledge on BITOG and the rest of internet, so I’m sure you can answer these simple questions.

 

[HangFire]

From:

https://etd.ohiolink.edu/apexprod/rws_etd/send_file/send?accession=csu1397567798&disposition=inline

Both JASO T 903:2011 and T 904:2006 tests utilize a clutch pack consisting of
several steel disks and fiber plates enclosed in a test head. The clutch pack operates in a
temperature controlled oil bath. An electric motor is then used to rotate the fiber plates to
3,600 RPM while the steel disks are held static in the test head. During this motoring
phase, there is no pressure applied to the clutch pack. Once speed and temperature set
points are met, pressure is then applied to the clutch pack to cause lock up. This event is
referred to as a dynamic engagement. A metal disc connected to the electric motor
simulates vehicle inertia. During this dynamic engagement, parameters such as speed
and torque are measured and are used to calculate the Dynamic Friction Characteristic
Index (DFI) and Stop Time Index (STI). These are the first two parameters which are
used to classify an engine oil’s frictional performance. The third parameter is called the
Static Friction Characteristic Index (SFI). For this evaluation, the same set-up is used,
but now the evaluation begins with the pressure applied to the clutch to facilitate lock up.
A low speed (300 RPM), high torque motor is used to ‘break’ the clutch pack loose and
cause slippage. Once again, torque, speed, and other parameters are measured and used
to calculate SFI.

 

[MotoTribologist]

Yes, that’s the document for JASO. All they want is dynamic/static friction characteristics and stop time index. Nowhere do they state how these are obtained nor cite an SAE test for it or some other equivalent. Do you know how these are obtained? Does anyone else on BITOG? There are no units there just a range index. Do you know what the index represents?

You claim this is common knowledge on BITOG and the rest of internet, so I’m sure you can answer these simple questions.

The SAE #2 test rig can obtain those values for an oil. JASO just wants the values from a standardized test and that test method is an accepted method.

It's included here on their "List of Testers": https://www.jalos.or.jp/eng/eng.htm

The indices are unitless because they are a comparison to the frictional values obtained from a standard oil.

🤷‍♂️

 

[B6_Dolphin]

Nice debate, but just follow the TRX300 owner's manual:

 

[IndyIan]

In my pre-bitog days I ran some 5W50 Castrol Edge synthetic in my wet clutch 300 kingquad and shortly after the clutch start slipping when cold, but was OK for the most part once the oil warmed up. Now I use Rotella T4 15W40 and the clutch seems to work fine now. My boys are riding it now so its getting a workout...

 

[KrisZ]

Nice link @HangFire thanks for sharing.

Interestingly here is what that article also says:

While this test provided a solution for the immediate problem of slipping motorcycle clutches by developing a standard for motorcycle engine oil friction, it did not touch on any of the other motorcycle specific lubricant needs such as transmission gear durability, oxidative resistance or valvetrain wear.

So it’s just like many here stated, besides clutch slippage, which any competent rider can detect, there is nothing special in motorcycle oils.

To me JASO is quite irrelevant.

 

[KrisZ]

The SAE #2 test rig can obtain those values for an oil. JASO just wants the values from a standardized test and that test method is an accepted method.

It's included here on their "List of Testers": https://www.jalos.or.jp/eng/eng.htm

The indices are unitless because they are a comparison to the frictional values obtained from a standard oil.

🤷‍♂️

So no account for different clutch pack materials out there has to be taken?

Like I said originally, all they worry is oil friction because the energy conserving oils are heavily friction modified, to which you replied with that meme.

You are still yet to explain the mechanisms that impact wet clutches that apparently are common knowledge.

 

[MotoTribologist]

So no account for different clutch pack materials out there has to be taken?

Like I said originally, all they worry is oil friction because the energy conserving oils are heavily friction modified, to which you replied with that meme.

You are still yet to explain the mechanisms that impact wet clutches that apparently are common knowledge.

My meme response was just me matching your contribution in kind.

You got me though, it's witchcraft and no one understands how it works. A true mystery of the universe that may never be solved.

Like the Star Trek transporter, when asked how it works, the answer was always "Well."

 

[KrisZ]

My meme response was just me matching your contribution in kind.

You got me though, it's witchcraft and no one understands how it works. A true mystery of the universe that may never be solved.

Like the Star Trek transporter, when asked how it works, the answer was always "Well."

Yup, you have no idea, that’s clear by now. All you know is JASO—- good, no JASO—-bad. And you keep drumming this up without a clue why.

 

[HangFire]

So apparently there is a JASO standardized test head that is described in "Annex A" that we are not privy too. I've done my share of searching, maybe someone else can find it. Nevertheless, it exists, and is used to determine or disqualify oils based on the real science of standardized testing and quantifiable results... Along with a chemical profile and some other standards that the oil must meet.

I suppose one could take an non-JASO rated oil, run a bunch of oil analysis on it, look up all the specs and compare to JASO MA/MB, do some ad hoc version of the slippage testing and call it good.

Or you can play it safe and use any of a large number of affordable JASO wet clutch rated oil. That's what I do.

We were challenged to find the science behind JASO testing, fine, I found it. I always figured it was there, but my assumptions were challenged, but found to be correct. There's a reason these standards were developed, exist, and are refined. There are real, hard testing numbers behind the JASO ratings. Maybe other oils meet those numbers. Maybe not. No one in this discussion as the means to prove it.

I am interested in enjoying my motorcycles, not using them as test beds to disprove someone on the internet, so I just keep it simple and use a JASO rated oil where there is a wet clutch. If there's something I don't like about it, I'll try another brand. I don't try to convince the world they have to do that, but it is my recommendation. If you want to try, experiment, or recommend something else, fine, but don't try and tell me there is nothing to the JASO specs.

While I'm always interested in someone's experience trying different lubricants, the insistence of a few here that all must bend to their opinion, or be somehow mentally or emotionally limited, is baffling.

PS Also there is no such thing as a "Holy Trinity" of science, and "observation" and "experience" are the same thing. There is a scientific method, but that's not it. Look up the scientific definition of "fact" to see the term that is really used in science.