I keep reading on BITOG about extra Moly in the Honda factory oil fills. Why does Honda feel they need to do this and not all other auto companies seem to find the need to do it. Are they worried that their engines won't last long enough without the moly? Or that they won't break in properly? We have had several Hondas in the family so I am not anti Honda just trying to get this answered.
Why extra Moly in Honda factory fill & not others?
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I recently looked at a UOA of a BMW N55 engine and the factory fill had 186ppm of moly. Not sure if this is a high amount or not, but it stood out on the FF UOA.
I'm also not sure if it is special oil or the assembly lube which is often heavily laden in moly. If you've ever built an engine, you'll note that assembly lube is smeared all over every journal bearing, cam lobe, and any other moving engine part (except pistons) to lubricate the engine in the first few cranks before oil makes its way into those places. It could be regular oil with a heavy dose of moly from the assembly lube used at the factory.
This info is probably out there, especially with respect to Hondas. FWIW, I went the full distance on my wife's 09 Odyssey with the factory fill. On my new BMW with the N55, I went about 1.2k miles on the FF. I didn't UOA either because my view is that it doesn't give any useful data.
I'm also not sure if it is special oil or the assembly lube which is often heavily laden in moly. If you've ever built an engine, you'll note that assembly lube is smeared all over every journal bearing, cam lobe, and any other moving engine part (except pistons) to lubricate the engine in the first few cranks before oil makes its way into those places. It could be regular oil with a heavy dose of moly from the assembly lube used at the factory.
This info is probably out there, especially with respect to Hondas. FWIW, I went the full distance on my wife's 09 Odyssey with the factory fill. On my new BMW with the N55, I went about 1.2k miles on the FF. I didn't UOA either because my view is that it doesn't give any useful data.
I don't believe Honda is using high moly content oils for engine break-in purposes at all; that's not the reason for it.
Most of the Japanese originating oils contain very high moly levels. It has everything to do with maximum fuel economy and the lowest possible C02 ratings. It's another reason why many Japanese made Honda's come with 0W-10 as the FF oil.
The high moly additive they use is Adeka Sakura-Lube and even the XOM NA made Toyota 0W-20 uses the stuff imported from Japan:
http://www.adk.co.jp/en/chemical/pickup/pickup01.html
Most of the Japanese originating oils contain very high moly levels. It has everything to do with maximum fuel economy and the lowest possible C02 ratings. It's another reason why many Japanese made Honda's come with 0W-10 as the FF oil.
The high moly additive they use is Adeka Sakura-Lube and even the XOM NA made Toyota 0W-20 uses the stuff imported from Japan:
http://www.adk.co.jp/en/chemical/pickup/pickup01.html
^^CATERHAM, in my 2009 TL's manual, it specifically says that the car comes with special factory fill oil to aid break-in process and to not prematurely drain it. I also called Acura/Honda USA and the emphasized this verbally.
Honda doesn't use factory fill engine oil with high moly content, but they do use assembly lube with very high moly content in their engines. I thought the myths about a special factory fill engine oil used by Honda were put to rest when the August 2006 Honda Service News Bulletin came out. Page 4 addressed the issue very specifically.
deven, my point is that virtually all Japanese sourced oil from Nippon Oil and Idemitsu contains very high moly levels.
In NA only the Japanese 0W-20 grade contains the high moly levels.
Acura doesn't spec' 0W-20 oil yet for their cars consiquently I can understand why they recommend that the FF not be changed "prematurely".
INDYMAC, as I stated above Honda does of course use high moly FF oil but it is not "special FF oil" per se.
In NA only the Japanese 0W-20 grade contains the high moly levels.
Acura doesn't spec' 0W-20 oil yet for their cars consiquently I can understand why they recommend that the FF not be changed "prematurely".
INDYMAC, as I stated above Honda does of course use high moly FF oil but it is not "special FF oil" per se.
Why the difference?
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Partly because Honda says not to change early, partly because the Honda is a refrigerator to me, and partly because BMW recommends around a 1.2k mile first oil change for their M cars and I thought it would be good to do it for the new N55.
The ~40L stash of Green GC that I've been hoarding for a car like this might have played a role in the decision too!
Partly because Honda says not to change early, partly because the Honda is a refrigerator to me, and partly because BMW recommends around a 1.2k mile first oil change for their M cars and I thought it would be good to do it for the new N55.
The ~40L stash of Green GC that I've been hoarding for a car like this might have played a role in the decision too!
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Honda doesn't use factory fill engine oil with high moly content, but they do use assembly lube with very high moly content in their engines. I thought the myths about a special factory fill engine oil used by Honda were put to rest when the August 2006 Honda Service News Bulletin came out. Page 4 addressed the issue very specifically.
Mac, would you please post this bulletin? I am very interested in this subject.
Honda doesn't use factory fill engine oil with high moly content, but they do use assembly lube with very high moly content in their engines. I thought the myths about a special factory fill engine oil used by Honda were put to rest when the August 2006 Honda Service News Bulletin came out. Page 4 addressed the issue very specifically.
Mac, would you please post this bulletin? I am very interested in this subject.
All of the links that I have for it say I'm not authorized to view now...sorry. Maybe a Honda tech can access it for you?
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Honda doesn't use factory fill engine oil with high moly content, but they do use assembly lube with very high moly content in their engines. I thought the myths about a special factory fill engine oil used by Honda were put to rest when the August 2006 Honda Service News Bulletin came out. Page 4 addressed the issue very specifically.
Mac, would you please post this bulletin? I am very interested in this subject.
IndyMac: Since your link doesn't work, perhaps you could quote the pertinent portion?
In the meantime, in addition to the admonishment in the owners' manuals ("Do not change the [factory fill] until the scheduled maintenance time"), Honda's Owner Link states the following:
"Why should I wait to change the oil the first time?
Your Honda engine was delivered with an oil that is specially formulated for new engines that have not yet developed their "natural" wear patterns and may contain minute particles from the manufacturing process.
American Honda strongly recommends this special oil be left in the engine long enough for these wear patterns to develop, usually until the first maintenance interval specified in your Owner's Manual, based on your specific driving conditions."
Finally, a cursory review of the VOAs/UOAs on this board confirms Honda's factory fill is uniquely high in its moly content. The only mystery is the source.
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Honda doesn't use factory fill engine oil with high moly content, but they do use assembly lube with very high moly content in their engines. I thought the myths about a special factory fill engine oil used by Honda were put to rest when the August 2006 Honda Service News Bulletin came out. Page 4 addressed the issue very specifically.
Mac, would you please post this bulletin? I am very interested in this subject.
IndyMac: Since your link doesn't work, perhaps you could quote the pertinent portion?
In the meantime, in addition to the admonishment in the owners' manuals ("Do not change the [factory fill] until the scheduled maintenance time"), Honda's Owner Link states the following:
"Why should I wait to change the oil the first time?
Your Honda engine was delivered with an oil that is specially formulated for new engines that have not yet developed their "natural" wear patterns and may contain minute particles from the manufacturing process.
American Honda strongly recommends this special oil be left in the engine long enough for these wear patterns to develop, usually until the first maintenance interval specified in your Owner's Manual, based on your specific driving conditions."
Finally, a cursory review of the VOAs/UOAs on this board confirms Honda's factory fill is uniquely high in its moly content. The only mystery is the source.
I used to use a moroso moly assembly lube on my camshafts when i swapped them or changed lifters. Not sure how much that would raise the total moly count in the oil.
I don't have a copy of the bulletin to quote, but I'll try to paraphrase from what I remember it said.
Honda was addressing an issue with their techs about customers bringing their new cars in for early oil changes because the oil was turning dark quickly. Honda told the techs to explain to the customers that the reason the oil was turning dark quickly was because of the high moly content of the assembly lube used during manufacture, and not because the oil was dirty and needed changed before the recommended service interval. They explained that the factory oil was high quality GF-4 engine oil and changing it early should be discouraged.
That was the basic jist of it, but here is a discussion we had about the bulletin on another site back in 2006:
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/441885-final-word-on-break-in-oil/
Honda came out with their own oil spec after this bulletin, so maybe that is what they use now, with high moly content assembly lube too.
Originally Posted By: Hounds
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Honda doesn't use factory fill engine oil with high moly content, but they do use assembly lube with very high moly content in their engines. I thought the myths about a special factory fill engine oil used by Honda were put to rest when the August 2006 Honda Service News Bulletin came out. Page 4 addressed the issue very specifically.
Mac, would you please post this bulletin? I am very interested in this subject.
IndyMac: Since your link doesn't work, perhaps you could quote the pertinent portion?
In the meantime, in addition to the admonishment in the owners' manuals ("Do not change the [factory fill] until the scheduled maintenance time"), Honda's Owner Link states the following:
"Why should I wait to change the oil the first time?
Your Honda engine was delivered with an oil that is specially formulated for new engines that have not yet developed their "natural" wear patterns and may contain minute particles from the manufacturing process.
American Honda strongly recommends this special oil be left in the engine long enough for these wear patterns to develop, usually until the first maintenance interval specified in your Owner's Manual, based on your specific driving conditions."
Finally, a cursory review of the VOAs/UOAs on this board confirms Honda's factory fill is uniquely high in its moly content. The only mystery is the source.
Honda was addressing an issue with their techs about customers bringing their new cars in for early oil changes because the oil was turning dark quickly. Honda told the techs to explain to the customers that the reason the oil was turning dark quickly was because of the high moly content of the assembly lube used during manufacture, and not because the oil was dirty and needed changed before the recommended service interval. They explained that the factory oil was high quality GF-4 engine oil and changing it early should be discouraged.
That was the basic jist of it, but here is a discussion we had about the bulletin on another site back in 2006:
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/441885-final-word-on-break-in-oil/
Honda came out with their own oil spec after this bulletin, so maybe that is what they use now, with high moly content assembly lube too.
Originally Posted By: Hounds
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Honda doesn't use factory fill engine oil with high moly content, but they do use assembly lube with very high moly content in their engines. I thought the myths about a special factory fill engine oil used by Honda were put to rest when the August 2006 Honda Service News Bulletin came out. Page 4 addressed the issue very specifically.
Mac, would you please post this bulletin? I am very interested in this subject.
IndyMac: Since your link doesn't work, perhaps you could quote the pertinent portion?
In the meantime, in addition to the admonishment in the owners' manuals ("Do not change the [factory fill] until the scheduled maintenance time"), Honda's Owner Link states the following:
"Why should I wait to change the oil the first time?
Your Honda engine was delivered with an oil that is specially formulated for new engines that have not yet developed their "natural" wear patterns and may contain minute particles from the manufacturing process.
American Honda strongly recommends this special oil be left in the engine long enough for these wear patterns to develop, usually until the first maintenance interval specified in your Owner's Manual, based on your specific driving conditions."
Finally, a cursory review of the VOAs/UOAs on this board confirms Honda's factory fill is uniquely high in its moly content. The only mystery is the source.
Yes, I remember the service bulletin and it's now not accessible. However, it's just as IndyMac stated. At that time (2006) Honda's explanation for rapidly darkening factory fill oil was that the hi moly assembly lube was causing it.
Now since then, Honda has come out with the 0w oils, which have 800ish ppm of moly in them. Did the oil back then have this much moly?
Now since then, Honda has come out with the 0w oils, which have 800ish ppm of moly in them. Did the oil back then have this much moly?
Originally Posted By: rcy
Yes, I remember the service bulletin and it's now not accessible. However, it's just as IndyMac stated. At that time (2006) Honda's explanation for rapidly darkening factory fill oil was that the hi moly assembly lube was causing it.
Now since then, Honda has come out with the 0w oils, which have 800ish ppm of moly in them. Did the oil back then have this much moly?
If you scroll down on this spreadsheet you will find a S2000 UOA of factory fill dated 9/4/2004 (probably a MY03). It had 1073ppm Mo. I can't find any others handy to show, but 800-1200ppm Mo sounds about right for factory fill back then.
http://members.rennlist.com/oil/test_results.htm
Yes, I remember the service bulletin and it's now not accessible. However, it's just as IndyMac stated. At that time (2006) Honda's explanation for rapidly darkening factory fill oil was that the hi moly assembly lube was causing it.
Now since then, Honda has come out with the 0w oils, which have 800ish ppm of moly in them. Did the oil back then have this much moly?
If you scroll down on this spreadsheet you will find a S2000 UOA of factory fill dated 9/4/2004 (probably a MY03). It had 1073ppm Mo. I can't find any others handy to show, but 800-1200ppm Mo sounds about right for factory fill back then.
http://members.rennlist.com/oil/test_results.htm
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
So the Honda faithful can cuss you up and down if you suggest draining the factory-fill out of there at anything less than a full-length oil change interval.
Love it!
So the Honda faithful can cuss you up and down if you suggest draining the factory-fill out of there at anything less than a full-length oil change interval.
Love it!
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