You should listen to the video. This lawyer has spent more than two decades specializing in lemon law and the Magnuson-Moss act. He definitely knows what he's talking about.
Why Dodge Denied $36k in Warranty Coverage for a New Challenger SRT Hellcat Jailbreak. By Tara Hurlin of Hemmings
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No disrespect, but I have worked with some trial lawyers - professional hazard - and 100% of them felt they were right 100% of the time.
Again, not saying the court would agree or disagree - just going by what the article says.
Post a link to some case law and I am happy to read it.
He talks plenty about case law and cases he has litigated. He's not just giving an opinion because he's a lawyer, nor does he ever say anything about being right, instead he approaches the topic very objectively. I've been around long enough to smell uninformed opinion, this video isn't uninformed opinion. I challenge you to watch it and tell me if my take is on the mark.
Part of M-M is to make sure the warrantor doesn't deny coverage for the inoperable power window due to the aftermarket exhaust installed on a car while allowing them to deny coverage on a problem caused directly by the aftermarket exhaust.
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Out of respect for your polite request, I watched the video. I was happy to see Mr. Steve Lehto in the video - I watch his channel often. The other guy (Paul) is a clown and I resent giving him any click.
The original article infers the infraction was changing the control software which "automatically" voids the warranty because it can be tracked. The article doesn't mention other reasons - which may or may not have existed.
Specific parts in said video that I see refuting this - note this is highly paraphrased, please watch yourself.
12:40 Paul uses this specific example that flashed firmware leaves the owner with no recourse and the dealer can specifically deny warranty.
14:00 Mr. Lehto counters this with if they flashed the ECM AND it caused the engine to produce 100 more horspeower which damaged the engine - so again, Mr. Lehto is using the result of the flash as an excuse - not the flash itself. He also indicates the next step would be litigation involving experts and a jury.
Mr. Lehto indicates (again, highly paraphrased) that the modification itself must be shown by a preponderance of evidence to a jury that it caused the defect, and even if so, its not worth fighting because the OEM's have more lawyers and money than you do - ie if you modify your vehicle expect problems because you can't fight city hall.
Some more spots:
6:50 - Mr. Lehto references that the vehicle was modified AND the modification caused the defect
7:20 Paul indicates the proof of the modification caused the problem is not the burden of the OEM, and Mr. Lehto refutes this at 8:00 saying only the preponderance of evidence needs to be proven to a jury, but all cases are decided by the preponderance of evidence.
8:42 Mr Lehto says he advises his clients to return the vehicle to stock and take it back and the dealer should fix it.
Again there is a lot we don't know about this particular case.
I do hear what you are saying - I've been in this "world" of aftermarket car mods for a long time and this has always been an issue..how to handle warranty claims on a car that is modified. This can span the range of a drop-in K&N air filter (should pass muster...but if you really get in the weeds...does it? Does a K&N air filter meet VW's specifications for filtration that the OE filter does?) to tuning/ECU mods. Here, the ECU was flashed with performance software that increases power..that much is a surety so having a major engine failure is v. easy to peg to the tune without much need to prove anything. Further, most owner's manuals I've seen clearly state that modifying your ECU (tuning/power add) impacts your warranty..how can't it? I have a modified car and have dealt with some warranty claims that were non-powertrain related without issue but if I blow a turbo for example, the likelihood would be low to get a claim approved as the tune is pushing that turbo well beyond what the OE designed it for. The need for details here isn't required - a blown engine that was tuned is cut/dry, the car was modified beyond the manufacturer's design. I agree with you that I would hope you get a better explanation such as "ECU was flashed with aftermarket software. Car had lean condition in cylinder XYZ causing pre-ignition and the piston being destroyed which was directly related to the aftermarket software calibration." What we usually here is "Car has tune, warranty void" which rubs folks the wrong way w/r to Mag Moss and is over-simplified. Folks can always take the OEs to court where they will loose every time on the engine tuned/engine blew up situation. Another example here, VW water pumps. On the MK7 VWs (GTI etc.), water pumps are notorious for leaking. Many folks with heavily modified VWs have had success getting them covered under warranty b/c in the end, they fail tuned or not and VW has been somewhat forgiving by not doing the typical "tuned/void" game this example, to me, is in the spirit of MM meaning the tune didn't cause the issue so they cover it.
The guy was late for church.
Are you saying that the Dodge had a modified ECU/flash tune that didn't add power b/c it was stated anywhere? Of course it did...whether that is stated clearly or not...it really doesn't need to be as that is assumed/a given in this convo. That is what tuning does/is used for. Bottom line is you aren't tuning a car, having an engine failure, and getting that covered. This would be a huge waste of money to try to litigate but hey, maybe you could win it. Tunes add power by adding more boost, more fuel, more timing advance/some combo well outside of the range that the car was designed for. Maybe out there there is an aftermarket tune that doesn't increase power, and in that case sure, you could fight it...like a replacement tune akin to using a Fram filter vs. Mopar....but that isn't what's going on here and where MM would come into play. An interesting case is where MOPAR, Ford, etc. make performance tunes for their cars...they are somewhat of an OE/aftermarket hybrid that *may* maintain the factory powertrain warranty in-full...quite a bit different.
Nice guy, I've met him, runs a great VAG parts/aftermarket shop that I use. Hardly a "clown". Has helped countless VAG owners with v. good DIY videos.
All of this is spelled out clearly in the warranty for my VW. It does say "damage due to" and you are correct, in court, VW would need to show that what I did was the cause of the warranty claim denial which would likely be easy for them to do....but yes, you can fight it in court.
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The automaker can dig further if needed and the owner was going to fight it. Remember there's a cat-n-mouse game between tuners and the automakers. Tuners are trying their best to hide their product from detection so there's no incentive for automakers to willing show their cards right off the bat
That's just it. Everytime these type of things come up, right away people start waving the Magnuson Moss flag. The automaker has both the means and desire to drag the individual up and down the courthouse steps, until they wish they had paid for the whole thing themselves.
They can easily make it totally financially ineffective for them to challenge in court. Much like the way the tobacco companies did with cancer lawsuits before they agreed to their massive settlement.
That's obviously out of the question here, because there will never be as many tuners as smokers.
Dodge was 100% correct in my opinion.
If you modify the factory computers that run the engine, set the timing, air / fuel ratio, rpm limits, and more, then it blows up...its between you and your tuner, not Dodge.
I have never modified a car or truck in my life for more power.
But if I ever do, and it blows up, I'll just have it towed to a shop, admit my mistake, and hand them my visa card.
If you modify the factory computers that run the engine, set the timing, air / fuel ratio, rpm limits, and more, then it blows up...its between you and your tuner, not Dodge.
I have never modified a car or truck in my life for more power.
But if I ever do, and it blows up, I'll just have it towed to a shop, admit my mistake, and hand them my visa card.
wemay
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100%, but who the he|| wants to go through that. Like we discussed in an earlier thread.
Exactly because you will lose everytime.
You nailed it. As the plaintiff you will -among other things- have to hire an expert to testify that the modifications did not cause the failure. Count on spending at least a couple of years slugging it out with the manufacturer- if you are lucky.
And in my experience 99% of judges don't know the difference between a spark plug and a drain plug.
So there's that...
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And as that show goes on the car sits dead with a blown engine in this case, while the owner of the dealership takes home whatever car in his inventory he sees fit. When he goes to sleep, he probably sleeps like a baby, not worrying at all about the car in question.
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Run it stock if you want to ensure the drive train warranty remains in effect
Yep, the fact that they even offer a full warranty on a vehicle like this is amazing. No one buys them to drive 10 under the speed limit to church with the blinker on the entire time. Adding in a tune and driving it as hard it you can is a recipe for disaster.
It's very simple, Dodge (OR VW or GM or whoever) is going to have an engineer say "non factory software caused the vehicle to operate outside of design parameters" or something similar. That engineer is the "proof". It is up to the customer at this point to "prove" otherwise. Perhaps you can successfully do so, but it is gonna cost you.
And the federal government does not even back you up because they forced Harley to void powertrain warranty on anything with non-certified exhaust or tune. The EPA is after the tuners... you'll get no help from the .gov.