Why are there so many AWD cars now?
- Thread starter Elkins45
- Start date
Yeah it'll get snows this year. I bought this car about a year ago and figured I'd just tough through the winter and see if it could do it. Now I know I need snows and I only waited because I planned to buy new wheels for the car and use the current ones for snow tires.
In the overwhelming majority of cases, this it true. Especially with work from home on snow days that's common in a lot of places now.
Over and over folks here refer to snow as the sole reason for getting an awd vehicle....there are so many other road conditions that average folks encounter that awd can be benefical at a slight penalty for mpgs and maintenance. The VWs call for the fluid in the Haldex clutch to be changed every ~3 years. That's the additional cost. The pump if it fails is about $150. Sure, there is more to go wrong but awd systems now are fairly common and been around long enough to have worked out the bugs.
What conditions are those? For hooning around, sure AWD is nice, but for getting around on regular roads? Its not doing much for anyone IMO.
Compared to fwd, they've usually added some sort of PTO off the transmission which may or may not work well, an extra diff and propeller shaft, and then another pair of CV axles. It seems most of these have been engineered a bit better, but its at the 8-10 year mark where problems show up. Extra fluids to change, drag, complexity, more weight...
Sort of like dual zone climate control, why not have it, doesn't cost much extra?, but at 8-10 years you've doubled your chances of fixing it under the dash.... And if you aren't doing this stuff yourself, its another pointless $1k repair.
I'm a bit sad that now a "cheap car" is one of these tiny AWD SUV things, with turbo's and lots of extra stuff, all with parts spec'd to get most of them out of the warranty period and that's it. I suspect these will be more disposable than ever, but we'll see.
The big one is rain/wet conditions.
Worry about issues at 8-10 years....you are WAY out of the range of what your average person buying vheicles cares about. I have a 20 year old awd Passat in my driveway, I had the prop shaft seal replaced and fluids changed. That's it. If you are a buy and keep thing past 10 year, just get bare bones base model vehicles b/c you are right, less chance of things needing repairs but many folks want some luxury in their life and I don't blame them. Dual zone...yeah, that Passat's 20 year old dual zone is a bit clunky now but still works.
You sound like many here in the "get off my lawn" camp about new vehicles - but the fact is...this tech has been around for quite a while now and I don't see the roads lined with vehicleds with blown turbos and awd systems. Vehicles are more reliable than ever in 2023 turbos dual-zone awd and all.
That's why I specifically limited the question to the Tiguan/Atlas, since you can get the Torque Vectoring rear axle on the RAV4 and Highlander, sort of like the Acura SH-AWD and Honda's i-VTM (on the Pilot), but they can overdrive the rear to get up to 30:70 bias.
No, neither the Atlas and Tiguan has a Gen5 version of the Gen4 XWD (that was limited to GM products including Saab), even for 2024.
The GR Corolla, as available (Option on the Core and standard on Circuit and Morizo editon) Torsen LSD for the front and rear differentials.
So Atlas/Tig still get gen 5 Haldex I guess.
Many of the AWD systems these days, when you take a curve hard, on power, can send some power to the rear wheels, reducing FWD plow. Even my Hybrid electric rear motor AWD does this.... so that's a benefit on regular roads.
It;s not like AWD costs considerably extra these days, less than $2000 to get AWD. Audi and Subaru have shown after all these years, that their AWD systems had been quite reliable, the engines may have their own problems.
The only extra fluid for an AWD system, is the rear differential fluid. But Haldex requires their wet clutch fluid (which there are few alternative fluids, the ones I know of are from Febi and Ravenol off the top of my head) to changed regularly, even a FWD Haldex, like a GTI with the Performance Pack, that has a haldex coupling up front next to the open differential to act like a LSD, which you regularly need to drain and refill the fluid, with occasionally pulling the pump to clean the pump screen)
MK8 Golf R supposedly went Magna for its AWD system, including the torque vectoring rear, while the rest of the MQB platform retains Haldex Gen5.
So instead of another haldex coupling at the rear open differential, like a Gen4 XWD, it has 2 clutches on both sides surrounding the open differential, like Toyota Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD and Acura SH-AWD/Honda i-VTM.\
Likely pretty complicated but you can feel it.
The thread that wouldn't die - so it must be euthanised!
Somebody - h-e-l-p !!
Somebody - h-e-l-p !!
Simple..It'll help you go, but it won't help you stop!
Feel what? Ask any person on track do they want AWD or RWD, you will get 99% of time: RWD.
AWD from performance stand point does contribute something if one is willing to live with drawbacks (oversteer compared to RWD in vehicles designed properly, not Lexus). But on the straight line? 2WD rules.
I certainly hope most people aren't driving their AWD vehicle that hard on the street on a regular basis... yikes!
Do you do track days? Autocross? Not that I'm some expert driver, but I can't say I've ever felt AWD or 4wd help reduce mid corner power on understeer, unless you have totally overwhelmed the available grip and start going into a 4 wheel drift...(the individual rear wheel torque vectoring systems aside) Sure on corner exit, like rwd, you can put down a bit more power than fwd, but that is track level driving, not road driving.
And sure you can accelerate more quickly in the wet with AWD but I don't see many people doing a 1 wheel peel at every stoplight in the rain, so most people can control their right foot a bit....
There's nothing wrong with preferring AWD, enjoy it, but for most vehicles and most people, in most situations, its doing nothing for them but providing some placebo effects and lets them accelerate normally in snow.
For my regular winter driving, I don't really care about AWD, and I've found I just prefer which one of our cars has the newer winter tires on. AWD is helping for the first 50' from a stop and then its doing nothing IMO.
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I go by: enter slow and power out. When you enter slow, you don't overwhelm the chassis and drivetrain, and get penalized with FWD plow, or RWD oversteer, or lift throttle oversteer. Oversteer is more fun, but you don't see the tree you hit.
The power out, is when I see some power on the rear axle from the AWD system.
For winter, I already stated.... gravity eventually wins with FWD on long steep hills, even with proper winter friction studless tires, and in Commie-fornia, lessen of the need to chain up. AWD on long steep hills, since the power is also going to the rear wheels, you get to keep momentum moving for you.
Back in Northern NJ, you have long steep hills, which as you lose momentum going up, with FWD and with proper winter tires, you try to compensate by increasing throttle, but there's the limit where you increase throttle and break traction, and all hope is gone, and the traction control system fighting to keep going. Studded tires or chains/cables will help here, and will also help with going back down said long hill. But with AWD systems, coasting down... Full-time AWD like a Subaru or a full-time Audi system (not haldex), engine braking will still act on all 4 wheels, part-time AWD will disengage the AWD system during braking. Hybrid and electric systems with regenerative braking on both axles will regenerate on both axles, until the hydraulic brakes are engaged.
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Point systems implemented by sanctioned racing groups, AWD adds points, weight, complexity, and money. Half the experience of tracking is finding a car easy and cheap enough to work in in the class you want to compete in; AWD gets crazy expensive to maintain and work on when tracking. When used in a higher or unrestricted time attack class like NASA TT1/2/U, they tend to place pretty high, if not podium. Weight is one of the worst things when trying to slim down an AWD car; you can't just take the transfer case, driveshaft, rear diff, etc etc out when putting the car on a diet and any decent aftermarket modifications to these tend to be expensive. When used in a higher or unrestricted time attack class like NASA TT1/2/U, they tend to place pretty high, if not podium. Anybody remember the Sierra Sierra Evo 8 back from 2010? That thing was a record breaker at nearly every event it ran at.
On the track AWD systems help with getting on the power earlier when coming out of the turn. Racing in the rain? Forget about it, no 2WD car is going to come out of a corner faster than an AWD, all things considered the same. Racing in the rain is rare though and doesn't happen enough to cause a concern.
So yes, AWD does help in turns and high speed stability. No your AWD system on your crossovers/SUVs will only help marginally and if a driver is dumb enough to think their CUV is going to go around a corner like Senna because it has AWD then they deserve the consequences. No engineer is going to take or design an AWD for a Pilot/Atlas/Sienna/CX5 for the track no matter how much they market the "sportiness" of it.
IME every AWD system will cause the front to plow in a corner, no matter how good it is, even if it's just a small amount. There are way to mitigate the corner plow though which is why there's different torque biased systems and torque vectoring systems. Every manufacture does it different and the results can and will wildly vary.
Power and traction wins in a straight line, not drive type. Up to a certain power at least, then stuff starts breaking.
On the track AWD systems help with getting on the power earlier when coming out of the turn. Racing in the rain? Forget about it, no 2WD car is going to come out of a corner faster than an AWD, all things considered the same. Racing in the rain is rare though and doesn't happen enough to cause a concern.
So yes, AWD does help in turns and high speed stability. No your AWD system on your crossovers/SUVs will only help marginally and if a driver is dumb enough to think their CUV is going to go around a corner like Senna because it has AWD then they deserve the consequences. No engineer is going to take or design an AWD for a Pilot/Atlas/Sienna/CX5 for the track no matter how much they market the "sportiness" of it.
IME every AWD system will cause the front to plow in a corner, no matter how good it is, even if it's just a small amount. There are way to mitigate the corner plow though which is why there's different torque biased systems and torque vectoring systems. Every manufacture does it different and the results can and will wildly vary.
Power and traction wins in a straight line, not drive type. Up to a certain power at least, then stuff starts breaking.
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Same applies going up a grade covered with ice . Had a few times couldn't get up driveway with 4 studded tires due to ice .
