Who's more responsible for the decline in of the big 3: Union or Management?

[Bret Chase]

"Outrageously overpaid union factory workers are the primany downfall. Factory workers making more than teachers is what is destroying our manufacturing base and sending jobs overseas."

teachers make **** good money for the time they put in. my ex-wife made $35,000 +/- during the last year of our marriage. for that 35k she worked 6 hours a day for 178 days. this works out to ~$32.75 an hour. she did have her Rank 1 and 10 years on the job, she was also in one of the lower paying school districts. we lived VERY comfortably in SE kentucky.

 

[Larry the Cable Guy]

...but teachers have a degree. What qualifications are required to screw on tail lights for $25/hour (or more) PLUS huge benefits?

Yes, it's management's fault...for giving in to the insane demands of the labor unions. The non-union automakers have financial health AND they are producing quality products.

 

[kanling]

Teachers work a lot more than the six hour school day.

Making lesson plans, making tests and classwork, grading papers and tests, parent conferences, most of that is during after school hours.

(They'd have to pay me a LOT more than that to babysit 30 annoying kids for six hours!)

 

[Larry the Cable Guy]

"Consumers are responsible for closed-mindedly believing what amounts to a lot of hype, i.e. Toyota and Honda are the best, everything else is second rate."

Thirty years ago the Japanese brands were REALLY looked down upon as second rate. How did this perception change? Perhaps they EARNED it?

 

[kanling]

quote:

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Thirty years ago the Japanese brands were REALLY looked down upon as second rate.

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Ha ha, that's why I laugh every time I hear somebody make a wise crack about how they would never buy a Chinese car!

 

[JHZR2]

quote:

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I wonder how long it takes for a car consumer to "go back" to a brand after having a bad experience or hearing a lot of negative opinions? For me, I would guess 10-15 years... that's a long time. Car makers can't let their guard down.

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My parents had less than stellar experiences with a number of American cars in the 70's. This ended with the purchase of a 1979 or 80 Ford Fairmont that was crap and was replaced in 1985 with a Dodge Colt Vista (mitsu product). Our next American car wasnt bought until 1997 (plymouth breeze, which has been an EXCELLENT car).

Larry the Cable Guy :
You want to know how the consumer is responsible? Well, here is how I see it... If I was to start a new thread on here about how Japanese cars are superior to US cars, everyoneon the board would chime in saying how this simply isnt true... People would cite how the buick regal was rated higher in quality than the Camry, others would praise this or that... US-made pickup trucks (which I think most everyone agrees are superior) wouldnt even need to be in the mix.

At the same time, look at what the typical American consumer picks as superior... forget what appeals to your driving, handling and economy senses... just think what they see as more reliable and superior... most would say Toyota or Honda. They've earned this reputation, and it has stuck.

Yet, the people on this board - maybe not the best representation of the population, but likely a good one, will say until theyre blue in the face that American cars are at least equal... while likely driving foreign cars (I know I'm guilty).

I think that this micro universe we call BITOG is a good example of the point that consumers are to blame... nothing against anyone on here... I just think its a good example to relate to. But even just looking outyour window, if you have neighbors, Ill bet one of your close neighbors has either a camry, accord, corolla or civic. For a reason - what theyve associated with longevity and good value for an extended lifecycle. Right or wrong, it is what it is... If 1/3 of those foreign car purchases were US built cars instead - would we still have this problem? Likely to a far lesser extent, if at all! But the consumer isnt fully to blame, just like no other entity in itself is to blame... And the consumer is less to blame by a longshot than the other entities.

Hopefully this wasnt too long-winded or roundabout an example...

JMH

 

[Larry the Cable Guy]

If 1/3 of those foreign car purchases were US built cars instead - would we still have this problem? Likely to a far lesser extent, if at all!

Such as my Toyota Tundra? U.S. Built - Princeton, Indiana
Such as my Subaru Outback? U.S. Built - Indiana as well.

I would guess that a much higher percentage of the new cars sold currently are produced within our borders ("American Made") than 10 years ago. They just are not produced by the Big Three. The U.S. auto industry is not going down the tubes at all, it is growing at a pretty good rate. It just isn't the Big Three that are growing.

How many plants have been closed by the Big Three in the last ten years?
How many plants have been opened, ON OUR SOIL, by other automakers?

 

[ALS]

The European built cars are all built by Union workers. BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, VW, Porsche, Audi and Saab are all built by union members. So you can't say they are losing sales to Euro companies using $5 per hour workers.

 

[Blake Sobiloff]

The crux of the problem is that big three management agreed to very, very generous health and retirement packages for line workers. As costs for healthcare have skyrocketed, so has the liability/drag on earnings. GM spends $1,525 dollars per car sold to pay for healthcare and another $675 in pension costs. Each current worker is supporting 2.5 retired workers. They can not be competitive with that kind of overhead. (Read this article on CarList.com for more gory details.)

Yes there has been mis-management, greed and corruption on both sides. However, ALL companies are getting screwed by the over-regulated, over-litigated health care system here in America.

 

[Gary Allan]

I lay most of the blame on us and our government. This has been a domestic jobs program for a very long time.

Read the writing on the walls.

An economy totally depenent upon debt.

Recurring frequent, volume driven sales.

Exempting SUVs (calling them trucks) from EPA/CAFE requirements.

Adaptive financing that the liability is born by the manufacturer in terms of speculative leasing. A fixed residual ..with no assurance of the model having any value in the future.

We're just seeing the death throws of what was the one last bastian of domestic manufacturing that was maintained on mythical, fairytale, means ..just like the rest of our domestic economy. It just ran out of steam NOW. Others ran out of steam much earlier.

For the teachers: Their time will come too. We ignore the future costs and deal with todays convenience. When the burden of public education (mainly due to teacher's salaries and retirement benefits) makes its ugly head an untendible situation ..it will crumble too and the burden will merely change hands and you'll end up paying for it anyway.

Shell games ..and we were helping it along all the way

It's not rocket science.

 

[DJ]

in the 70s my understanding is the imports were crap but the big three still had a following and themselves were heading towards crap as the imports got better the big three let quality drop. By the late 80s the domestics were on the upturn and the imports were pretty good. Now that the domestics are again quite good as are the imports the domestics are still having a hard time convincing people of their current quality. The care owners take of their cars plays a BIG part too. An in-law works at a Volvo/Jag/Landrover and something else dealer says customers thing nothing of $1200+ for 100K service. Due to low resale tied to the above aluded to lower PERCIEVED quality of domestics many domestic owners rather buy another than take care of a vehicle.
Most of my extended family even drives domestics and has little trouble.

Another thing management of the domestics does wrong is how they handle the inevitable issues that arrise. GM or Ford fight tooth and nail to avoid a recall until there is huge media coverage. Toyota had a HUGE recall not long ago but TOOK CARE OF IT so everyone forgot about it quickly. There will be problems and recalls, how well they are handled makes a big difference in percieved quality.

Consumers absolutely share some of the blame, they are stupid enough to pay well over list or near new prices for used. Father-in-law drives Pilots, his first traded in after 1 year was sold for $1200 less than what he had paid. The IDIOT who did that is exactly the problem had he/she bought NEW they could have gotten better financing, the used financing and only $1200 less than new price means they probably paid more for it than they would have a new one.

 

[Bret Chase]

"Teachers work a lot more than the six hour school day.

Making lesson plans, making tests and classwork, grading papers and tests, parent conferences, most of that is during after school hours."

I was married to my example, I know full well the time she put in. it's not nearly the crushing hardship that the NEA would have you believe.

 

[JHZR2]

Larry the Cable Guy :

Youre absolutely right... foreign automakers DO make cars here, and employ people here... But we're talking about the decline of three major companies, not the jobs associated with them.

Other than the fact that some cars got their production site moved to Mexico or Canada, the # of jobs is likely more or less a wash... Ill bet robots had a bigger influence on the number of workers employed...

But as far as the decline of the corporate entities themselves... that is what Im talking about.

JMH

 

[sprintman]

$5.15 per hour is low. It's $12.30 per hour or $467.40 per week minimum wage here. I wouldn't get out of bed for $12.30 let alone $5.15. I'll try and find out what car companies pay here.

 

[Pablo]

$12.30 US is your mininmum wage? That's just stupid.

Minumum wages are dumb anyway.

 

[mikemc]

I realize that they have been in trouble for a while, but didn't the bottom fall out when gas prices hit $3/gal? I wonder how many times we as American consumers and auto makers have to learn that its not too smart to make or buy a passenger vehicle that gets 10 mpg.

 

[sprintman]

If you have a permanent job it's $467.40 minimum. It's due to go up soon. Most get much more than that. Now that's Oz dollar remember but it's buying power here is good. Oz has had one of the world's strongest economies for a long time now. Unemployment in the ACT (Australian Capital Territory) where we live is 2-3% with a desperate shortage of skilled workers as there is in most of the country.

 

[Terry]

Management. No matter what you read about contracts they are still in the drivers seat and when the SPIT hits the fan they decide the direction.

Blaming unions is an excuse for a lack of leadership.

And I note that I am management.....

 

[oilyriser]

Management is in charge, so it is to blame when the company fails.

Minimum wage is silly because it doesn't take into account the local cost of living. And I think Sprintman is talking AU$, not US$.

 

[LarryL]

Do you think that GM management will take a paycut in a recovery plan? Kirk Krikorian has been buying big blocks of stock and could, soon take control. I'll bet GM execs will take paycuts if he is in charge, but not until.