Which station wagon with stick-shift

Status
Not open for further replies.
P

pacem

Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Messages
1,021
Location
Northern Virginia
Trying to decide on a fairly new, 5 years or newer, say circa 2005, Station Wagon, with 5 speed manual transmission.

Thinking about BMW 525i, except worried about how the RWD handles in poor conditions such as rain or snow. (The last bimmer I had, an 87 325i once fishtailed on me, scaring me to death. In fact, the PO had been in an accident due to it losing stability in snow.)

Any other choices to consider?

Subaru - the 2.5L engine used to have consistent head gasket issues, not sure if it still does.

Volvo - nice overall on paper but the carsurvey.org reports are pretty bad reliability-wise.
 
Last edited:
Tough. Premium cars from that era are junk. I actually suggest a nice Acura SUV if you want snow mobility. No 5-sp. imo, one of the best deals on of the best cars from that era is AWD and manual...an Audi TT. There are great deals on them used. It's not a "wagon" but has a lot of hatchback room. Otherwise, throw us out some more ideas to consider, besides Subaru (ick).
 
btw- one of the MOST reliable cars is a Volvo V70, but the Cross-Country has AWD problems. 1998 still had distributor ignition. 2000 is still reliable.


Maybe a nice Saab would be ideal. They are really sweet cars, I'd just assume repair one of them as a BMW or MB. Audi Avant A4/A6 is fine too, just get a clean one. I would take an Audi Allroad over nearly any vehicle. Plenty of power (S4 engine w/2 turbos) 6-sp, quattro, airbag suspension that lifts as high as MB and BMW SUV (X5) but lowers down to sport height drop on the hwy. They ARE quite reliable for what they are and if you maintain them.
 
I had 2 Audi wagons. No complaints. The green one had zero warranty repairs, and little more than wheels bearings and a few control arms at 120k.

Avant04-1.jpg


newava2.jpg
 
A 2005 BMW 5 series will have stability control and will keep the car from fishtailing. Get another set of rims with good snow/ice tires on it and it will get around just fine in the winter. Or at least get an all season tire with good snow/ice performance.

What about a Mazda 6 sport wagon? They had manual transmissions available?
 
maybe a little too old for you, but the '02 Saturn LW200 could be had w/ a stick. 34mpg, 4wheel disc, ABS, traction control all standard, and the ecotec engine is a great performer.
the last year for the little saturn wagon, the SW2, was 2000. easily 36mpg, easy to work on, cheap to fix.
 
The old BMW you drove didn't lose grip because it's RWD, it lost grip because it's old.
wink.gif
If it were FWD, it would have understeered, or else it would have made you drive more slowly in the first place. I had an '88 528e get a little twitchy for a second on me in the rain, too. My current car (see the sig) laughs at the rain and snow. Totally stable, and that's a '96 with no stability control. My dad recently got a 2008 128i, and he was fine in light-to-medium snow even with all-season tires.

Any new BMW will be one of the most planted, grippy cars you have ever driven in any conditions. Rain is nothing. You might want snow tires for the winter, especially if you climb a lot of hills. Either way, don't let RWD deter you.

Some recent 5-series models were available in AWD with manual transmissions. You might want to look for those as well, if they're in your price range.

Subarus are great. No serious problems any more AFAIK. Modern ones are basically like slightly slower AWD BMWs without the niceties: just solid chassis engineering and great handling.

A Mazda 6 should be fun. It won't handle like a BMW or Subaru, but it's still good to drive and deserves a place on your list.

Audis are sort of a mixed bag from what I've seen. Some people have absolutely no issues with them for a long time, and some people can't keep them out of the shop. They're great to drive, though. If you're considering one, look for low miles and a comprehensive and responsible maintenance history.

If you're looking at a wagon, PLEASE don't let anyone talk you into an SUV. They are a lot heavier for the same amount of interior space, MUCH less fun to drive, and a lot less dynamically competent. They are actually WORSE in the rain and snow than an equivalent car. The only things they do better are tow big stuff and look meaner.

Wagons are great. They make sense. Best of luck in your search!
 
I wouldn't mind the Mazda6 wagon, which can be had in stick, and will be cheap. Bad fuel economy, but you probably make that up in initial price. Or a Subaru, which are actually pretty nice inside.

I also wouldn't want RWD at all. It's simple physics. All the traction control/stability control can do is maximise the available traction, which simply isn't available at the same levels as an AWD car... plus for 99% of drivers the predictible understeer of a FWD biased car is vastly superior to the oversteer of a RWD car in snow. And would you really consider the cost and hassles of snow tires in MD?

I really don't see the decision between an SUV/Wagon as a black and white one. Is a CRV/Rav4 a SUV? Or a wagon? Because they weigh 3300 pounds which is less than the wagons you're considering, will get better fuel economy (even the V6 in the Rav) are on unibody chassis so afaik for all practical purposes besides appearance they are wagons. Unfortunately, besides the Escape you can't get one in a stick.

Best of luck, get something you like.
 
There is an Audi A6 Wagon in my office complex that I lust over. I'd say at least consider the A6. I'm not sure if they came with a manual or auto, though..
 
Originally Posted By: bepperb
All the traction control/stability control can do is maximise the available traction, which simply isn't available at the same levels as an AWD car...

For standing starts, I agree. For turning... maybe, maybe not. For stopping, not a chance. The RWD cars under consideration are not the front-heavy live-axle cars of yesterday. I challenge any comparable AWD car to run a slalom and brake better in the wet than a RWD BMW.

I remember reading a review that said the AWD option on the Dodge Magnum wasn't worth it even for snow, because the RWD one was good enough -- and that's a darn heavy car.


Originally Posted By: bepperb
plus for 99% of drivers the predictible understeer of a FWD biased car is vastly superior to the oversteer of a RWD car in snow.

My car understeers in the snow. So does every RWD car I know of among my friends.


Originally Posted By: bepperb
I really don't see the decision between an SUV/Wagon as a black and white one. Is a CRV/Rav4 a SUV? Or a wagon? Because they weigh 3300 pounds which is less than the wagons you're considering, will get better fuel economy (even the V6 in the Rav) are on unibody chassis so afaik for all practical purposes besides appearance they are wagons. Unfortunately, besides the Escape you can't get one in a stick.

I don't think those are really comparable to the cars in question.

A CX-7 weighs about 500 lbs more than the heaviest Mazda6 wagon I can find. An X5 weighs about 1000 lbs more than a 5-series wagon (give or take, depending on the generation).

All SUVs or similar vehicles, regardless of weight, are tall. That requires a long list of compromises to ride and handling. Wagons are cars with a little extra cargo space.
 
Empty, a FWD does well in snow, loaded for a snow ski vacation in the mountains (now, we are really going to need traction) my RWD Zephyr Wagon with snow and Ice tires was way better than any of my newer FWD cars! Nicely balanced with the 4cyl, 4 speed, then load the back full! This thing went up steep passes in blizzards for 12 straight years, always better than the Taurus's, etc that I used since that time.

The BMW may well have suffered more from the high performance summer tires than it did from from RWD. As a former Bimmer fanatic (a 1967 1600-2 purchased new and driven for 14 years) it was great in the snow - but always had snow tires in the back in winter!!
 
"All SUVs or similar vehicles, regardless of weight, are tall. That requires a long list of compromises to ride and handling. Wagons are cars with a little extra cargo space."

Maybe in 2004. The line isn't clear anymore. What is a Venza? Taller than a wagon, shorter than a SUV. Or an Outback? Or an X6?

If you really think RWD cars are better in the snow, than all I can say is that is a personal preference and not one shared by most drivers. As this is a thread for a MD driver, there's really no need to turn this into a topic they're likely not interested in.

The Legacy wagon is probably what I would be most interested in. But you can see from my sig that a luxury car with it's demands (low profile fast wearing tires, premium fuel, expensive insurance, expensive repairs, more frequent repairs) isn't something I consider a luxury.

Really, the BMW is probably fun to drive whereas the Volvo probably isn't, and the subbie somewhere inbetween. How important is that to you? Personally, I couldn't just have the Highlaner. It is a perfect vehicle for what it is. But it is not for driving pleasure, that's for sure.
 
Originally Posted By: bepperb
What is a Venza? Taller than a wagon, shorter than a SUV. Or an Outback?

I call those awkward compromises, myself. Better than SUVs, though.


Originally Posted By: bepperb
Or an X6?

Under the skin it's pretty much an X5. It has similar ground clearance and weighs almost as much. The only thing keeping people from calling that an SUV is its aggressive-looking C-pillar.


Originally Posted By: bepperb
If you really think RWD cars are better in the snow

Cripes. This again...

I never said RWD is better in the snow. What I said was, modern RWD cars don't suck in the snow. Please tell me you see the difference.
 
Originally Posted By: pacem
Trying to decide on a fairly new, 5 years or newer, say circa 2005, Station Wagon, with 5 speed manual transmission.

Thinking about BMW 525i, except worried about how the RWD handles in poor conditions such as rain or snow. (The last bimmer I had, an 87 325i once fishtailed on me, scaring me to death. In fact, the PO had been in an accident due to it losing stability in snow.)

Any other choices to consider?

Subaru - the 2.5L engine used to have consistent head gasket issues, not sure if it still does.

Volvo - nice overall on paper but the carsurvey.org reports are pretty bad reliability-wise.



Good luck--the wagon really seems to be a dying breed. I see that even Subaru stopped making Legacy wagons? Up here, you almost never see the sedans??

For a small wagon, a real sleeper is the Focus wagon. Bigger wagons would be the Bimmer, V70 or Madza 6 wagon (which are really hard to find--I'm looking for one right now).

I had a V70R and to be honest, it was pretty darned reliable. I think a front drive V70 w/o the boosted engine would be even more so. I guess some are prone to electrical problems, and there were throttle body issues w/many post '99's, but I was lucky on both counts. In 120K miles, the only mechanical issue I had was an ABS relay.
 
Re: Volvo V70, it's comments like these that concern me:

http://www.carsurvey.org/reviews/volvo/v70/r80517/comments/

Re: BMW 5-series:

"The old BMW you drove didn't lose grip because it's RWD, it lost grip because it's old."

I see no connection between 'old' and losing grip. Admittedly, I probably did have summer tires on it... If there is no issue with traction and RWD, I am interested...

As I said, 5-speed manual is important to me and I recall that BMW has a pretty smooth shifting 5-speeds.
Seems to get better reviews on carsurvey.org.

Now one problem is that 5-series BMW with stick is pretty hard to find, they are apparently mostly autos.

Re: Mazda 6
Had a 90's 626 with V6 motor - and that was insane to maintain. Had to take apart the throttle body to replace the starter. What a nightmare. If you like DIY, not the car for you. I doubt the new ones are any different.

Re: Audi
Does it have any advantages over BMW 5-series?
Since I want a 5-year old model, from mid 00's, how does it hold up long term? The older ones needed a lot of expensive work, I heard (But then so did the 3-series 1987 Bimmer I had)
Anyway, the feedback is not inspiring, hit and miss:

http://www.carsurvey.org/reviews/audi/a4/2004/
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: pacem


Had a 90's 626 with V6 motor - and that was insane to maintain. Had to take apart the throttle body to replace the starter. What a nightmare. If you like DIY, not the car for you. I doubt the new ones are any different



totally different--the Mazda 6 wagons use Ford's Duratec. That's one of the main reasons I'm looking at one.

r.e. the V70, online reviews/comments can often be tough. You often self-select people who are mad about something! If you look at various Volvo enthusiast sites though, you'll find that most maintenance/repair issues w/the V70 involve seals on the HP turbos and the rear differential. Sure, there are quirks, like any car--but I wouldn't hesitate to get a RA, front drive V70. Unfortunately, they're really hard to find in a manual.
 
Originally Posted By: pacem
I see no connection between 'old' and losing grip. Admittedly, I probably did have summer tires on it... If there is no issue with traction and RWD, I am interested...

You're right, I should have qualified that. What I meant to say was that cars from that time in general don't have nearly as much grip as they do now. Does that make more sense?

In the dry, BMWs actually have better traction than FWD cars because they all have nearly 50/50 weight distributions, so rearward load transfer under acceleration nets more weight on the drive wheels. They have less peak traction than AWD cars, but less drivetrain loss, too.

In the snow, they have less traction on a standing start, but the fact that they are not front-heavy (unlike FWD and most AWD cars) makes all the difference in braking and seriously helps in the corners. The only place where they have an unmitigated disadvantage is climbing steep hills at very low speed, but in that case only a good AWD car will work.

Rain is somewhere in the middle. :]


Originally Posted By: pacem
As I said, 5-speed manual is important to me and I recall that BMW has a pretty smooth shifting 5-speeds.
Seems to get better reviews on carsurvey.org.

Honda's shifters are better IMO. If you didn't ask for a wagon, I'd have recommended a Civic Si.


Originally Posted By: pacem
Had a 90's 626 with V6 motor - and that was insane to maintain. Had to take apart the throttle body to replace the starter. What a nightmare. If you like DIY, not the car for you. I doubt the new ones are any different.

The Mazda 6 is all new and completely different from the 626, AFAIK. Maybe someone better informed than I can chime in.

EDIT: See post above. :)


Originally Posted By: pacem
Re: Audi
Does it have any advantages over BMW 5-series?
Since I want a 5-year old model, from mid 00's, how does it hold up long term? The older ones needed a lot of expensive work, I heard (But then so did the 3-series 1987 Bimmer I had)
Anyway, the feedback is not inspiring, hit and miss:

If you have an AWD Audi, it'll definitely be better in the snow than a RWD BMW; then again, an AWD BMW is just as good.

The Audi will probably be cheaper.

The driving experience is pretty different. Hard to put a finger on. You should drive both on a variety of roads and see what you like. In my experience, BMWs are typically much sharper, although Audis feel better for just meandering around town. Both are very safe and competent at speed.

Any pre-FSI non-turbo Audi will last forever mechanically; if there are problems, they will be electrical. That's why it's so hard to gauge their reliability. They seem to be much better than the older ones, though.
 
Last edited:
A 2004 or later SAAB 9-5 wagon (SportCombi) can be had very cheap. 2004 puts you firmly out of the sludger years. The Aero version makes around 250-260 hp. But more than that, they are great all around highway cruisers.

Might I suggest, if you're willing to forgo the stick, you look into a Dodge Magnum wagon?

On the new side, a VW Jetta Sportwagen can be had for $19k with a stick.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

P
  • Locked
Trying to decide which station wagon
2
Replies
38
Views
14K
pacem
Back
Top Bottom