Where is the Electricity going to come to charge EVs ?

[brianl703]

One need only look at using an efficient gasoline generator to charge an EV to see the reality of the situation.

I did that once. I used a probably not-so-efficient 8kW generator with a 15HP Briggs engine to charge my Volt.

Got 20 miles of charge on 1 gallon of gas. (I was also load testing the generator, and the Volt makes a perfect load for that purpose).

It should be noted that the Volt gets 40MPG when it's running off it's own gas engine.

 

[brianl703]

Son in law works for TVA and manager for planning for future. He informs me that are not concerned about producing enough electricity, in fact stating they do not feel it will be a huge issue for them. Now, will the distributors be able to handle the load????

The local utility is upgrading the distribution in older 60s-era neighborhoods around here. They are installing taller poles and installing 1 transformer to feed 4 houses (so there's a transformer on every pole with NO secondary distribution between poles) vs. the original setup of 1 transformer every 2nd pole, feeding 8 houses per transformer.

Are they doing this because of expected load growth? Seems likely.

 

[PandaBear]

Nonsense and utterly incorrect. The stack of losses powering an EV are impressive indeed.

One need only look at using an efficient gasoline generator to charge an EV to see the reality of the situation. I'll save you the effort of searching. Using a Honda EU2000, a Tesla gets 15 miles range per gallon consumed in the generator. (1/3 less on the highway)

Using an Honda EU7000 results in 19 miles of range per gallon of gas consumed.

Large combine cycle gas turbine is 50% efficient usually at peak, and after transmission probably 35-40% efficient.
Your toy generator is probably 15-20% efficient, your gas engine is probably 25-30% (up to 40% in a Prius).

You are doing it wrong.

 

[Cujet]

Large combine cycle gas turbine is 50% efficient usually at peak, and after transmission probably 35-40% efficient.
Your toy generator is probably 15-20% efficient, your gas engine is probably 25-30% (up to 40% in a Prius).

You are doing it wrong.

Haha, yes a portable generator is not the right way, but it does eliminate some hidden losses such as grid losses.

It's good to know that:

A) Not all power plants are as efficient as a combined cycle natural gas one. National avg is 33%
B) Grid to wheel efficiency of an EV is 59% to 61%. (that's energy transfer, not regen and includes charger losses, charging losses, discharging losses, controller losses, motor losses, drivetrain losses)
C) Almost all gasoline engines today are 35% thermally efficient, many are 40% (such as the Camry) and the prius is 41%.
D) Highway trips at speed really highlight EV power use.
E) EV's also consume considerably more power when cold.
F) EV owners (and famous YouTube presenters) always use the dashboard display for miles per watt hour. Completely ignoring how much the power meter spins, how much power they lost just sitting, or how much power they purchased.

However, when charging at a pay station on a road trip, the cost and consumption becomes quite a bit more clear. EV owners never say at the end of the year, how much power they purchased divided by the miles driven.

 

[Cujet]

It should be noted that the Volt gets 40MPG when it's running off it's own gas engine.

It should also be noted that the Volt directly connects the engine to the wheels when it can. Despite what GM would lead you to believe. The Volt is a plug in hybrid with a big battery. IF one were to eliminate that feature, the MPG of driving a generator to charge a battery, to drive a motor is 15% lower (according to GM). It's that stack of losses again. If you got 40mpg with the gas engine, expect 34mpg with no mechanical connection.

 

[skyactiv]

Here’s a Wikipedia on a natural gas peaked plant not far from me: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darby_Generating_Station

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

Isn't that generally true of all subsidies, bailouts, etc?

By the way, TSLA is up $53 today... Why did I buy that stupid car when I shoulda bought stock?

Fear of missing out

 

[Schandyman]

That’s the problem, it’ll be so expensive to charge an ev that it’ll be limited to the wealthy. The powers of todays country not the I grew up in don’t want us all driving.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Most jurisdictions that are trying to phase out ICE vehicles have chosen 2035 as the date for banning the sale of them. That’s a mere 13 years from now. Vehicles purchased today will represent the average used car in 2035. Then there will be a large number of used EV’s as well, the older ones with serious battery issues. Unless they make it easy to replace the batteries these EV’s will be headed to the wreckers.

So, if the pontificators are correct you will only be able to purchase new EV’s but there will be a shortage of used ones. Meanwhile, mechanics like ]@AutoMechanic will do great keeping old ICE vehicles going. Also, governments will waste huge taxpayer dollars to try send ICE cars to the wreckers. It will be a huge cluster, even if you can still find power.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Here’s a Wikipedia on a natural gas peaked plant not far from me: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darby_Generating_Station

The huge increase in Marcellous gas production helped crash the price of natural gas, giving the plant a windfall for the last 7 years.

 

[alarmguy]

I know people who have a small fuel efficient car they use for commuting to work, and a pickup or SUV they use for everything else.

In this scenario the EV replaces the small fuel efficient car.

Yes, that is the way I see this for a while. The gas powered vehicle will be the "status" symbol because it can be driven anywhere without needing an extension cord.

 

[Schandyman]

We'll be in one or the other in the coming years.

 

[Pablo]

"Where is the Electricity going to come to charge EVs ?"

What a silly question.

The usual way. By BANNING THINGS.

I mean is not that the typical answer? It never actually works, but you know we did pass laws.

 

[alarmguy]

I guess what I am saying is, EV ownership, based on my experience and many others I know, is different than what non-owners "think".
I can understand that especially if you want an EV to fuel up like an ICE car. That's the rub; I don't.
Range anxiety is real, but you learn; it is not what you think. You do not fuel an EV like an ICE car. Let's look at comparable sedans...
How often do people drive over 200 miles in a day without stopping?
How many people fuel up at work for a subsidized rate or even free?
How many owners start every day with a full tank?

"they will never have the status of a gasoline powered vehicle until the EV can be refueled like a gasoline vehicle"
I cannot agree with this opinion. I don't want my Tesla to be like my GS350 F Sport.
I drove 10+ miles to Costco early today to gas up and buy a few things. I hate gas lines so I get there early.
I had about 3/4 tank... To my surprise, premium dropped like 30 cents to $5.49; I put in $29.68 for just over 5 gallons. Not good, but I love this car... But I have to drive 20 miles to get a decent gas price. I drive the Tesla into the garage to charge...
Had I not been using the Tesla that gas fillup could easily be $90. Ouch!
Currently Model 3 use gets me to solar project break even faster, after that it is pure saving.

Personally, I fly rather than drive any real distance. I could drive to San Diego but that takes time that I don't have.
I doubt I will ever buy another ICE vehicle except maybe an F-150, but not a sedan or SUV. They just don't make sense in my world. Too much hassle. Look at the maintenance requirements of my GS... And for fun, the Model 3 is pretty hard to beat. I wonder if an ICE will have the status of our Tesla?

This is all I am saying. My use case is a good fit, others have their individual use cases. Curious: How many Tesla owners have you spoken with that tell a different story? I would find that interesting.

I think you know Consumer Reports found Teslas have the highest customer satisfaction rating of any car, warts and all. There is a reason for it.

1. Exactly, two different purposes. EVs are a commuter car to most of the population and government subsides make them dirt cheap to own at the current time, just wait until they find a way to tax them like they tax gasoline vehicles and also stop subsidizing the purchase price of many models.
You do not use your vehicle for travel or pleasure traveling, you fly. That is fine.

2. For some reason if. you re-read my OP I am talking about electric vehicles but you are taking the comments as a ding against Tesla. Its clear you are proud of your Tesla and that's fine, we all take pride in stuff we buy. Your taking my comments personal though.
To me? Tesla is a nothing, a car manufacturer, a tiny needle in a haystack of automobiles commanding a 2.5% market share in the USA.

To you it is more and that's ok but I can tell you right now, I can jump in my GM SUV and drive to Destin Fl from my home in South Carolina in comfort and care free. I can jump in my SUV to the mountains of Western NC and Eastern TN, I can jump in my SUV and head to the beach. I can not do that with an electric vehicle and will not be able to do that for another 15 to 20 years. This is my life style regarding my vehicles and sadly I may no longer be on this earth in decades to come where it will be possible with an EV.

Consumer reports, hey, that's all good too. BMW and Harley motorcycles had the WORST reliability issue out of motorcycles attributed to minor things being they are more sophisticated. I own a Harley, new since 2014, now, 8 years later still hasn't needed a repair. SO I guess you need to agree with Consumer reports ratings arent that reliable.

The same goes for Tesla. Consumer Reports Rates almost every model of Tesla as having the worst rating for Reliability given to automobiles by the publication. To repeat = The worst reliability rating.
The satisfaction level is the highest with Tesla but that is highest rating is given to many, many gasoline vehicles too and of those gasoline vehicles many more have reliability scores that are the highest Consumer Reports gives out while Tesla is at the bottom of the barrel.

This is all goes back to my OP, Electric vehicles are still primitive as a primary multi-use vehicle for mainstream America, we do not have the infrastructure to support them and they currently are and would be an inconvenience for many people.
We are not going to see a market saturation of EVs approaching 20% of the market for a long time.

I dont see how Tesla will survive as a car company all the majors are gearing up their production, including new Chinese companies.
Building an electric car is simply popping an electric motor in it with some batteries. I see the day that these motors will be made by Chinese owned GE, Korean owned Samsung, Lg ect. and people will be buying cars based on motor options or the motor themselves. I dont know *LOL* but they are nothing special except...
we need enough power plants to replace all the gasoline stations in the USA... someone tell me how it will be done, until then, we are living in a bubble.

(just discussing/debating things here, I dont think anyone has all the answers)

 

[alarmguy]

One of my friend, while still on the "free supercharging" plan, drove between San Jose to LA monthly just for fun. He has no problem supercharging his ...

Why drive when you can fly? because of kids, flying medium distance is actually slower, and the luggage check-in and wait and the last mile rental car, etc.

I think we can agree, we NEVER agree on ANYTHING but I do agree I think for the first time on this! *LOL*
Keep in mind, I come from NY originally, two major airports 25 miles from my home.
Here is SC our airport is truly like walking into a country club. NOT KIDDING.

BUT flying is a PITA to me, I can drive to Florida from SC in my own comfortable vehicle and not have to deal with going to the airport. By the time I am done at the airport and all involved Im halfway to my destination in my comfortable carefree SUV.

 

[RooflessVW]

Where's the electricity going to come from for these radios?

Where's the electricity going to come from for these televisions?

Where's the electricity going to come from for these computers?

 

[OVERKILL]

Here’s a Wikipedia on a natural gas peaked plant not far from me: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darby_Generating_Station

Wow, that's a short Wiki! You should find some more details on the plant and improve it.

Here's a non-peaker that we have up here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennox_Generating_Station

She's a big girl, and is dual fuel. Being a thermal, she has the distinct advantage of being able to idle at MUCH lower levels than OCGT or CCGT plants. Currently, she doesn't get a lot of use, but if Pickering is retired prematurely, she will get plenty of exercise.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Alberta will be finished with converting the last of the coal powered plants to natural gas either this year or next. The world has to realize we need to get natural gas off the bad boy list.

 

[Shel_B]

1. Exactly, two different purposes. EVs are a commuter car to most of the population and government subsides make them dirt cheap to own at the current time, just wait until they find a way to tax them like they tax gasoline vehicles and also stop subsidizing the purchase price of many models.
You do not use your vehicle for travel or pleasure traveling, you fly. That is fine.

2. For some reason if. you re-read my OP I am talking about electric vehicles but you are taking the comments as a ding against Tesla. Its clear you are proud of your Tesla and that's fine, we all take pride in stuff we buy. Your taking my comments personal though.
To me? Tesla is a nothing, a car manufacturer, a tiny needle in a haystack of automobiles commanding a 2.5% market share in the USA.

To you it is more and that's ok but I can tell you right now, I can jump in my GM SUV and drive to Destin Fl from my home in South Carolina in comfort and care free. I can jump in my SUV to the mountains of Western NC and Eastern TN, I can jump in my SUV and head to the beach. I can not do that with an electric vehicle and will not be able to do that for another 15 to 20 years. This is my life style regarding my vehicles and sadly I may no longer be on this earth in decades to come where it will be possible with an EV.

Consumer reports, hey, that's all good too. BMW and Harley motorcycles had the WORST reliability issue out of motorcycles attributed to minor things being they are more sophisticated. I own a Harley, new since 2014, now, 8 years later still hasn't needed a repair. SO I guess you need to agree with Consumer reports ratings arent that reliable.

The same goes for Tesla. Consumer Reports Rates almost every model of Tesla as having the worst rating for Reliability given to automobiles by the publication. To repeat = The worst reliability rating.
The satisfaction level is the highest with Tesla but that is highest rating is given to many, many gasoline vehicles too and of those gasoline vehicles many more have reliability scores that are the highest Consumer Reports gives out while Tesla is at the bottom of the barrel.

This is all goes back to my OP, Electric vehicles are still primitive as a primary multi-use vehicle for mainstream America, we do not have the infrastructure to support them and they currently are and would be an inconvenience for many people.
We are not going to see a market saturation of EVs approaching 20% of the market for a long time.

I dont see how Tesla will survive as a car company all the majors are gearing up their production, including new Chinese companies.
Building an electric car is simply popping an electric motor in it with some batteries. I see the day that these motors will be made by Chinese owned GE, Korean owned Samsung, Lg ect. and people will be buying cars based on motor options or the motor themselves. I dont know *LOL* but they are nothing special except...
we need enough power plants to replace all the gasoline stations in the USA... someone tell me how it will be done, until then, we are living in a bubble.

(just discussing/debating things here, I dont think anyone has all the answers)

Your post and your attitude seem to be quite negative in tone. You're not the only one on this site that dings EVs. Yes, there's a way to go with the concept, the infrastructure, public acceptance, etc.

We're at the dawn of a new age, and I'm looking forward to seeing it unfold. It's an exciting time, except, perhaps, for those wedded to and having a vested interest in the the status quo and the past. I'm reminded of what it must have been like for my grandparents.

When they were born, and when they came to this country, there was no electricity readily available to the general population, cars had just barely been invented and, really, they were, at best, just experimental. Grandpa Jack never heard of an airplane, much less flew on one, and the radio, rudimentary as it was, had not yet found its way into homes on any scale.

Technology matures, then gives birth to new technology. How many here have used dial telephones, had an ice box instead of a refrigerator, know what a washboard is, much less used one, didn't have indoor plumbing, and lived in a world before plastics. The first few years of my sweeties life were spent without electricity, running water, or indoor plumbing. Last time I checked, she was driving a Prius and using electricity produced by her solar panels, and sending emails and "Zooming" to meetings ... remember Skype ... who uses it now?

 

[JohnnyG]

Kind of. The Prius works a bit more like a diesel/electric locomotive (though not exactly), here's what the power unit looks like:
View attachment 95182

There's a great Wiki on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive



It's apparently extremely efficient, and the engine is always operated in its most efficient range.

The Volt was the same, minus the Atkinson cycle, of course. But the Volt was a SERIES HYBRID, so it would run on strictly battery for the first 40 or 50 miles. Prius isn't designed that way, but many cars today are starting to use thay method.
Prius also has some engine issues that I've never heard about with the Volt, but that's a different issue.