What specs reveal a syn oil is a true syn?

[DinoLover]

I was just comparing the specs for Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w30 and Synpower 5w30 and the spec that was most different was NOACK, 12.3% for Quaker State Ultimate Durability and 10% for Synpower.

Does this suggest anything about the base oil? The Synpower product sheet says "Synpower is a fully synthetic motor oil".

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: DinoLover
Does this suggest anything about the base oil?

No. Both Quaker State Ultimate Durability and Synpower are predominantly group III oils, so not "true synthetic", whatever that means.

There is very little in a spec sheet that would help you figure out what base group it's made of, maybe pour point? Overall, it's just not that simple. Besides, it doesn't really matter what group it is. It is the performance that matters, and there are a number of different ways to achieve the same level of performance. People need to stop stressing about the whole "true syn" thing.

 

[dparm]

The synthetic blends are meeting and even beating some "full syn" pour points.

 

[MolaKule]

The TDS might reveal that the lower volatility oil has a bit more GroupIV or V added to it, or one of the base oil viscosities might be a higher viscosity, or one of the newer polymers might be added, or all threee conditions.

 

[DinoLover]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: DinoLover
Does this suggest anything about the base oil?

No. Both Quaker State Ultimate Durability and Synpower are predominantly group III oils, so not "true synthetic", whatever that means.

There is very little in a spec sheet that would help you figure out what base group it's made of, maybe pour point? Overall, it's just not that simple. Besides, it doesn't really matter what group it is. It is the performance that matters, and there are a number of different ways to achieve the same level of performance. People need to stop stressing about the whole "true syn" thing.


Understood but I thought that the "truly" synthetic oil has molecules that are very even, so this means they flow very very easily.

When I took out a dipstick with Mobil 1 0w40 on it that was at ambient temperature, I was surprised how easily it flowed and dripped off the dipstick. It flowed and dripped much more quickly than the other synthetics I have seen.

 

[teddyboy]

Originally Posted By: DinoLover
Understood but I thought that the "truly" synthetic oil has molecules that are very even, so this means they flow very very easily.



But doesn't the hydrocracking process of Grp III also produce extremely uniform molecules?

 

[dave1251]

Do not buy into the "true synthetic" hype. Group III oil performance is getting closer to PAO every year. The most important factor in formulating a oil is its overall performance.

 

[Ken2]

"Synthetic" is a marketing term for oil, not a performance term. There are some Group-III+ oils that are excellent by anyone's standard.

Buy the oil that gives you the performance your engine needs. There's more to a great steak than the variety of grass the cow ate, and there's more to a great oil than the base oil it was made from.

 

[dave1251]

Some Group III bases such as slack wax performance even is extreme climates is par with PAO.

Rather than removing the wax, as does solvent dewaxing, ISODEWAXING catalytically isomerizes the molecular structure of the wax into isoparaffins. These isoparaffins have high VI, low pour points, and excellent resistance to oxidation. Further, because ISODEWAXING preserves the base oil's paraffinicity, it can produce higher product VI and/or higher yields than other dewaxing processes.
When using ISODEWAXING, a broader range of feeds can be processed into a broader range of products. ISODEWAXING can process feeds with close to 100% wax, such as slack wax, and hard wax. It is a once-through process where 140 VI base oils can be made from slack wax without recycling unconverted wax. Refiners using ISODEWAXING can produce base oils with VI ranging from 95 to 140 and higher. Pour points may range from low ( -9 to -15°C) to ultra-low ( < -40°C).

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: DinoLover
When I took out a dipstick with Mobil 1 0w40 on it that was at ambient temperature, I was surprised how easily it flowed and dripped off the dipstick. It flowed and dripped much more quickly than the other synthetics I have seen.

Are you aware that Mobil 1 0w-40 is not a "true synthetic" either?

 

[DinoLover]

No I wasn't. I thought it was different because it's European Formula and not available at the same prices and sizes. Eg in Walmart you can only get singles not a 5Qt or so jug for $25.

 

[LeakySeals]

You mean a gasket shrinking PAO from the 70's-80's?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: DinoLover
No I wasn't. I thought it was different because it's European Formula and not available at the same prices and sizes. Eg in Walmart you can only get singles not a 5Qt or so jug for $25.

The term "European Formula" refers to the particular specifications that the oil meets (such as ACEA, VW, MB, BMW). However, these specs can be attained by group III as well as group IV/V oils.

As far as availability, Mobil 1 0w-40 is starting to become available in 5.1qt jugs at some retailers, but not at Walmart from what I've seen.

 

[Solarent]

This is a definition I found that clearly states the differences in pretty simple terms:
Quote:
Synthetic as a marketing term

Groups III, IV, V are all referred to as "synthetic" by oil marketers. This is because even though Group III oils are derived from distilled crude the purification process they are put through results in a fluid that is very similar if not identical to some PAO or ester based Group IV base stocks. The term "synthetic" typically describes a highly pure base stock that exhibits superior resistance to oxidation, high VI, and improved performance regardless of whether the process was through a controlled chemical reaction or through a distillation and purification process.

Conventional base oils

Groups I and II are left to the "conventional" category and still exhibit high levels of performance that can be enhanced by using the proper additive chemistry. The chief advantage to the use of conventional base oil products is the economy in cost relative to synthetic base oil products.


There is no real way to tell based on tech data as has been indicated many times on this board. This is because the testing shown on PDS do not describe all aspects of an oil's performance. I've never seen an oil report it's sequence engine test results for example.

 

[DinoLover]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: DinoLover
No I wasn't. I thought it was different because it's European Formula and not available at the same prices and sizes. Eg in Walmart you can only get singles not a 5Qt or so jug for $25.

The term "European Formula" refers to the particular specifications that the oil meets (such as ACEA, VW, MB, BMW). However, these specs can be attained by group III as well as group IV/V oils.

As far as availability, Mobil 1 0w-40 is starting to become available in 5.1qt jugs at some retailers, but not at Walmart from what I've seen.



But it's only in the US that a group III oil can be labelled synthetic, correct? What about Canada?

The synthetic oils in Europe have to be group iv or v, right?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: DinoLover
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: DinoLover
No I wasn't. I thought it was different because it's European Formula and not available at the same prices and sizes. Eg in Walmart you can only get singles not a 5Qt or so jug for $25.

The term "European Formula" refers to the particular specifications that the oil meets (such as ACEA, VW, MB, BMW). However, these specs can be attained by group III as well as group IV/V oils.

As far as availability, Mobil 1 0w-40 is starting to become available in 5.1qt jugs at some retailers, but not at Walmart from what I've seen.



But it's only in the US that a group III oil can be labelled synthetic, correct? What about Canada?

The synthetic oils in Europe have to be group iv or v, right?


No. It is only Germany where a Group III oil can't be labelled as Synthetic.

 

[Capa]

No, it's more like every country in the world calls Group III synthetic except Germany and, maybe, one other country. Like everyone has been saying, it doesn't really matter if the performance is up to par or even superior.

 

[Loobed]

Originally Posted By: DinoLover

Understood but I thought that the "truly" synthetic oil has molecules that are very even, so this means they flow very very easily.



Are not all molecules of the same type the same size? If they don't have the same number of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen atoms, they aren't the same oil molecule. I guess if you have an odd isotope somewhere in the molecule you might get a different size, but that might be like comparing the size of a golf ball to a ping pong ball in the Grand Canyon.

 

[DinoLover]

Watch this. All of it is good but molecule structure is in part 1 at 5:45

 

[Tom NJ]

PAO molecules are not all the same size. 5W-X oils based entirely on PAOs generally contain trimers (C30) and tetramers (C40) of 1-decene, and often a bit of pentamers (C50) as well.

Likewise polyol esters contain a range of different molecules. A common POE (TMP C8C10) has four molecules ranging from C30 to C36, and many POEs have a broader range. For example, most jet engine oil POEs contain dozens of different molecules ranging from C25 to C45, with some smaller amounts up to C70.

Tom NJ