What O/S are you using and why?

[uc50ic4more]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Well, okay, if desktop Linux is mainly for a few hobbyists than it is not for me. I spend a lot of time in Photoshop working on photos. I don't mind the SECURITY of a well installed Linux server.


Exactly. If you're using professional, commercial calibre applications like Photoshop, Linux ain't your cup of tea. We're definitely on the same page, here.

I think we also both agree that it'll be a good long while before commercial manufacturers; both hardware and software, begin to support this non-commercial system, and that is a major obstacle in widespread adoption.

My wife is a high school teacher who has used Ubuntu for a few years now. She has to run a copy of Windows in a virtual machine just to use their report card software twice a year!

On the desktop, Linux-based OS's (all gazillion of them) are definitely on the fringe. I recommend it only to people whose uses are casual, and whose experience with computers is little to none. Intermediate users who like to play games or install all types of software are not good Linux candidates, either.

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Best security protection I ever had was behind Linux servers as long as the ISP people knew how to set them up. Perhaps nothing better unless you used OpenBSD.


OpenBSD?! Wait a minute - You're like me! *You know everything, too!*

Originally Posted By: Mystic
If I had to grade operating systems I would probably give Apple an A or a B, Microsoft a C, and desktop Linux a D or an F.


"D" is for Delightful, and "F" for Fantastic?

I'd say for *normal desktop use*, Mac OSX "A", Ubuntu (remember, all Linux distro's are different OS's!) "B" and Windows a solid "D" for being such d**ks about standards, security and usability.

For professional applications and hardware support, things are much different, indeed.

When setting up an Ubuntu system for my computer illiterate friends/ family/ neighbors, I almost always run into at least one hardware issue. In the end, though, these casual users really appreciate how utterly simple Ubuntu is, and how they need *not* concern themselves over security too much.

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Oh well, life is good. But I think I was the most happy when I was running Mac OS 9.1 on my old Mac. No issues and just good times.


Exactly! A good OS is one you *don't have to think about*. I feel like Windows makes people's computing experience worse, and - again, for the casual user - Linux (Ubuntu specifically, which caters to new users and has excellent hardware support for a Linux-based OS) makes it less worrisome.

 

[Mystic]

Well, I can agree with this post completely. I thought seriously about going to Linux years ago until I noticed that driver support for the printers and scanners I needed never seemed to materialize.

I have to tell you that Mac OS X is a very relaxing operating system to work with. But the cost of the equipment is just too high. So I consider Windows to be an acceptable alternative. But Windows does have some issues.

I used to say that it might be a good idea for people who could to run a Mac computer for the internet and a Windows computer to do the work you needed to do, using the Windows computer much less on the internet. But even the Mac Mini is expensive, especially if somebody does not already have a keyboard, mouse, and monitor.

Perhaps it is a better idea to run a cheap computer with Ubuntu Linux on it for the internet and email, and the Windows computer for work you need to do. I will think about that.

Once I had my old Mac OS 9.1 computer set up, with enough memory for Photoshop and so forth (it did not really have good multi-tasking and protected memory)everything was sweet. It just ran with no issues at all and would not crash if enough memory had been assigned to each program. It was good times. Well, drops of water in the stream flowing down to the sea.

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

You know, I miss CP/M.

 

[Mystic]

I used to test my firewalls at that http://www.grc.com website, simple_gifts. I read a book by a guy who was a hugh proponent of Linux. I can't remember his name offhand. He wrote a book about Windows security and Linux security but the book was mostly about Windows security. For ultimate security the guy recommended that people switch to Linux. He did not have a high impression of the guy who runs that website.

I think you need to recognize that this material dates back to 2006. Did Microsoft deliberately put a backdoor into Windows? Who knows. Did you know that some people in the European Union accused Microsoft of doing that to enable the USA to engage in industrial espionage?

What about the possible backdoor discovered by A Squared in Firefox? Could people who develop Open Source software do the same kind of stuff?

We will probably never know. I think it is obvious that you really, really dislike Microsoft and Windows.

Personally I don't think there is that much difference between these corporations and I can't hate technology. The technology is either good or bad (or maybe have some good and some bad points).

If a person can afford two computers it might make sense to run a Ubuntu Linux computer on the internet just for web searches and email and run a Windows computer to get various work done (and not put the Windows computer on the internet much). What do you think of that idea? Seriously Windows is as good as Mac OS X for doing stuff like working in Photoshop. And if you did not have the Windows computer on the internet any more than necessary and going only to known safe websites you could probably avoid the massive tidal wave of malware.

For me moving completely to Ubuntu Linux does not cut it. I need a computer for more than just the internet and email. But a cheap computer running Ubuntu just for the internet and email might be a good idea. After all, what is the worst they could do-erase your hard drive? Heck, just reinstall the operating system and move on.

 

[PandaBear]

Mystic,

I think you have some way out of whack assumption about Linux or OS in general.

Linux is not a "you can add any line of code you want and everyone in the world would get it" kind of program. No code would build without compile/link error with these kind of openness. You type a random bunch of characters and others type a random bunch of characters doesn't means they work together. 99.99999% of the time they crash.

Most software development is done through a revision control system (Bit Keeper, Visual Source Safe, etc) that simplify the integration of changes. There needs to be people managing what changes is accepted and what is not, then you have to go through testing, revisions, releases, patches. Then an official release is then published.

Unless you get a set of code via an official source (i.e. a distro) these people get an official release that is tested and reviewed by anyone who wants to voice a concern. But it is ultimately the official committee that approve or disapprove changes. When an argument arise, there may be a fork that goes a separate path.

A distro usually is a package of things that work together and is in demand, so people would want to install them as a set. Unbuntu uses the same Kernel as Redhat or Debian, but they are packaged and tested differently. When a new Linux Kernel is released, the distros update at different times.

For the very commercial use of Linux, like in embedded systems, an commercial grade Linux is usually used to guarantee its verification and tech support. Monta Vista is a good example. They aren't the latest and they don't update on pieces that are questionable or if you don't like the latest and greatest.

Your "virus, security, GUI, etc" issues are minor annoyances that every OS have.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
If anybody in the Linux community wants for desktop Linux to go bigtime (and I know there are people like that in the Linux community) they better get off their high horse and fulfill customer needs. You don't tell a potential customer, 'So there is no driver for that printer. Well, develop a driver yourself.' If that attitude continues to be in place, desktop Linux will continue to be less than 1% of the market.


They are doing that. Where do you think stuff like SAMBA, MySQL, Apache, Journal file system, and all those good stuff come from? They are great efforts by people for others to use for FREE. Do you know how hard it is to reverse engineer a driver without manufacturing support? How do you know which bit to flip at what time? How do you know you won't get sued by the manufacture? You go try and do it. Drivers and firmware engineers don't get paid 100-200k a year for easy task like the ones in IT, customer service, Java, database, iPhone applications, etc. No offense to these other great positions and careers but drivers are very very hard work. I can honestly say out of 10 young college grad who start as junior engineers in these position only 2 remains by the end of 2-3 years.


Quote:
And Linux operating systems are products. Go tell Sun that their Linux servers with Linux operating systems are not products. I doubt very much that Sun, IBM, HP, and Dell consider Linux servers to be a hobby.


No they are not, Open Source software like Linux are group effort like organized street performance. The corporates like Sun, IBM are like the tourists that record the show and sell them as DVDs, and join the action once in a while.

Quote:
But if Linux fans want for us to consider desktop Linux to be just a hobby and exclusive to a few people who think they know everything, just let us know. We have Windows and the Mac. Who needs desktop Linux? And someday somebody somewhere (maybe the Chinese) will develop a computer operating system better than Windows or the Mac and you will be able to view Linux operating systems in some museum, amigo.


Ask a Netbook vendor who try to use a 8GB SSD if he want Linux, MacOS, or Windows.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Well, I can agree with this post completely. I thought seriously about going to Linux years ago until I noticed that driver support for the printers and scanners I needed never seemed to materialize.

I have to tell you that Mac OS X is a very relaxing operating system to work with. But the cost of the equipment is just too high. So I consider Windows to be an acceptable alternative. But Windows does have some issues.

I used to say that it might be a good idea for people who could to run a Mac computer for the internet and a Windows computer to do the work you needed to do, using the Windows computer much less on the internet. But even the Mac Mini is expensive, especially if somebody does not already have a keyboard, mouse, and monitor.

Perhaps it is a better idea to run a cheap computer with Ubuntu Linux on it for the internet and email, and the Windows computer for work you need to do. I will think about that.

Once I had my old Mac OS 9.1 computer set up, with enough memory for Photoshop and so forth (it did not really have good multi-tasking and protected memory)everything was sweet. It just ran with no issues at all and would not crash if enough memory had been assigned to each program. It was good times. Well, drops of water in the stream flowing down to the sea.


You know if you get the right hardware you can run OSX on a PC right?

http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
I have no issue with Linux servers. Although I hope they don't drive the Unix servers completely out. Windows and the Mac are fine to me as desktop operating systems.


They never will. While Linux is supported by all sorts of latest development. The very high performance OS is still the customized for hardware types that is designed for the ultra high performance server or workstations. I'm talking about something that cost $200k a piece or more here. Open source community won't have the financial resource to hire the experts in the field to do these kind of R&D.

Quote:

Best security protection I ever had was behind Linux servers as long as the ISP people knew how to set them up. Perhaps nothing better unless you used OpenBSD.

I do wish Microsoft would clear up a few issues but that is not going to happen so there is no use worrying about it. Windows 7 will probably be somewhat better. Apple may eventually be able to provide a little competition to Microsoft although right at the moment Apple actually has lost some market share.

If I had to grade operating systems I would probably give Apple an A or a B, Microsoft a C, and desktop Linux a D or an F.


Matt Bishop, the well known computer security professor in my college days, always said that the weakest link in security is always the human, and there is no way to be 100% secure. It is a trade off between usability and security, and is always based on something that you have to trust by faith (the fundamental building block that your security is based upon).

Windows is an extension of an OS from the single user non-internet days, and therefore it wasn't the architecture that based upon separation of access and control like other Unix / Linux / BSD based OS (like the OSX). If you change OSX or Linux to accept anything without question as default, I would think it is just as insecure as Windows.

 

[simple_gifts]

Simply stated Mystic doesn't believe desktop Linux is an option from Windows; I maintain it is.

Most people still run Windows for the same reason they change their oil every 3K (conditioning and they don't know there are options) For the three people to whom I have introduced Ubuntu; 3 have chosen it and moved away from Windows; all have printers, all work. I don't bother buying hardware and complaining it doesn't work under Ubuntu; I buy hardware that is supported; follow this path and there are no issues; I don't hear anyone complaining that AC Delco alternators won't work in a Honda.

The panic that is evident in MS's FUD is that much of what people pay money for is now available for free and at a higher quality level.

Choices are good.

 

[uc50ic4more]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Simply stated Mystic doesn't believe desktop Linux is an option from Windows; I maintain it is.


Well, as much as I am a F/LOSS advocate, the point he was making was that without a reasonable guarantee of hardware and software support, the system is flawed *in that regard*. It's hard to dispute, but easy to explain that condition.

He mentioned that he likes Photoshop; and again, that's a tough one to argue. I use a Macbook Pro for all of my professional work - audio production, video production, graphic design, photography and web development. I want desperately for a Linux-based alternative, but there aren't any yet, and I only know web-centered programming languages; not anything low level enough to perform these tasks. I administer my server, which is Slackware, through a SSH tunnel and use vi(m) to conduct my affairs there.

Ubuntu (and other Linux based OS's) is what it is. It is a near perfect alternative for newbies and casual users; but it is still untenable for those of us that require special/ professional software and/ or hardware.

 

[uc50ic4more]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
What about the possible backdoor discovered by A Squared in Firefox? Could people who develop Open Source software do the same kind of stuff?


Not secretly, *no*. The source code is there for all to see.

Originally Posted By: Mystic
And if you did not have the Windows computer on the internet any more than necessary and going only to known safe websites you could probably avoid the massive tidal wave of malware.


I agree 100%; it's just that most users would want to use their computer the way they want, not in a restricted way dictated by the vulnerabilities of the OS.

Originally Posted By: Mystic
For me moving completely to Ubuntu Linux does not cut it. I need a computer for more than just the internet and email. But a cheap computer running Ubuntu just for the internet and email might be a good idea. After all, what is the worst they could do-erase your hard drive? Heck, just reinstall the operating system and move on.


Just to be clear: Ubuntu can do *way* more than just internet and email. There is a perfectly viable Photoshop alternative (The GIMP), office suites (OpenOffice, KOffice, etc.), photo editors, media management, media players, servers of all sorts; all of which work similarly to their commercial counterparts. Amarok and Banshee, for example, kick the pants off of iTunes. OpenOffice and KOffice can create .pdf's natively. Firefox *kills* IE. You can use Skype, you can use Acrobat Reader and Flash. You can perform pretty much any task that any normal computer user would want to do; free and freely.

Having said that, if you like Photoshop, then never ever worry about your OS. Use your software to do the things you like to do! It's just that for many of us who value software *freedom*, and appreciate the stability, security, speed and capabilities of Linux-based OS's, it's worth advocating to casual users whose computing experiences are made *worse* by being vulnerable to spyware/ malware/ viruses/ trialware and expensive software that restricts what you can and cannot do with it.

Heck, Mystic, just download one of the Ubuntu LiveCD's, pop it in your computer and boot up (from the CD-ROM). It won't touch your hard drive or mess anything up, and you'll get a sense then of what Ubuntu has - and has *not* - to offer. It'll be slow as molasses, of course, since it's running form the CD-ROM, but you'll get the idea.

 

[XS650]

Quote:
And if you did not have the Windows computer on the internet any more than necessary and going only to known safe websites you could probably avoid the massive tidal wave of malware.



A ship in harbor is safe -- but that is not what ships are built for.
John A. Shedd

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Mystic,

I think you have some way out of whack assumption about Linux or OS in general.


It's a chronic condition.

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

Crossover (WINE) allows to run many Windows apps on Mac OS X & Linux. I have Photoshop CS v8 for Windows running on my OS X computer. Runs fine. As does Office 2000.

Dust off your Mac computer, install Crossover, and enjoy your favorite Windows apps on your Mac

...or Ubuntu. When 9.04 comes out, I'm going to put Crossover on it. Looking forward to a faster Windows experience....w/o Windows. (Reminds me of OS/2 running Win 3.1 apps...it's 1994 all over again except that Ubuntu is gaining popularity!)

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: ToyotaNSaturn
Dust off your Mac computer, install Crossover, and enjoy your favorite Windows apps on your Mac


I don't know of any Windows software I need or even want. Maybe some mapping software?

 

[T-Keith]

I've been running Ubuntu Linux for a couple years now. Believe it or not hardware support has been great, maybe even better then Windows. I have an HP desktop and a Dell laptop. Everything worked from the first install on my HP. My HP printer worked without installing anything, same thing with our Fuji camera, and when I upgraded the graphics card, Ubuntu booted up just fine. Try these with Windows, I guarantee you'd have to install drivers.

So for those that like to say Linux has bad support I'd say give it a shot, you'll be surprised. Bottom line is that some people will stick with windows for one reason or another(sometimes just stubbornness) but for a lot of people Linux would work as well or better.

-T

 

[mormit]

Originally Posted By: Mystic

So if Linux is really so much better than Windows, WHEN is Linux finally going to beat Windows? When is Linux going to offer people the software and hardware compatibility and computer experience they want so that they will finally move away from Windows? Exactly how many more years do we have to wait-taking into consideration that when it comes to computer hardware and software 1 year is a long time.


Same thing with Apple users needing Parallels so they can run Windows software.

 

[OVERKILL]

I've been using Linux on the desktop since the early 90's. It has come a LONG way.

I've been using it, successfully, in conjunction with tools like Wine/CXOffice/Cedega and VMWare for 8 years now on my (constantly upgraded) desktop system. And I've never had to reinstall it

It is fast, secure and reliable. But it's not an "out of the box" solution and that really is what dissuades many from using it. It is not yet a "point and click" solution like Windows, and as much as that is to the OS's advantage, it is of great detriment to the OS's success on the desktop.

Ubuntu shows much promise, and has appealed to the average Joe computer user like no other Linux distro has before it.

 

[blkblt412]

First time post on BITOG and I figure I would post on something that is familiar ground to me (I'm a complete noob most of the other topics in these forums, though I've enjoyed learning and reading the various posts over the last few weeks).

Current OS is Windows 7 Build 7068 (Beta soon to be Release Candidate) for work and my main computer at home.

I also have an Apple G5 computer running Mac OS X and another desktop running Windows XP SP3.

 

[unDummy]

2 laptops on Vista.
1 desktop on XP.

I tried Windows 7 in my HP laptop and couldn't get the graphic drivers(nvida 7150/630m) to load. Vista has the same issue but I could get the video drivers to load in safe mode.

I have several dust collectors with win98/ME/2000 on them.