What is torque steer?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Quote:


I haven't noticed any torque steer in the FWD A4 either, Pete. I know the quattro has equal length half shafts, but I don't know about the FWD.




The A4 2.0 DTM has the motor mounted longitudinally and a rather odd looking gearbox to accommodate it …beats me why they just didn’t make it RWD? However that one doesn’t torque steer…

Can’t say the same for a SAAB Viggen, that thing Torque steers for England!
 
Quote:


My 3000GT`s steering wheel would always turn to the right if I ever made the tires spin. It was an N/A,but #@$%! that car was fast!!!!!!!!!! Had a hellacious powerband from 4000 rpm to red line. Man I sure miss her!




OMG, this happens to me when I hit the gas real hard except it only happened when I was turning right from a dead stop on a Jack in the Crack parking lot and when I wanted to turn the wheel straight, it stayed turned to the right and I was helpless in trying to turn it back to center. When the wheel is centered and I hit the gas, one of the strengths of this car is that, atleast the V6 and I am not sure if VSA has anything to do with it or if works without the VSA but it tends to limit torque steer quite a bit.

Bro, I know EXACTLY how you feel and it sucks! Infact, this is a good reason not to race anyone, not only because you can do it but also the other car might shoot into your lane! And then how would you explain that to your insurance company!
 
Let's keep this on track and on focus (pun semi-intended). In some cars, TS is an irritation at virtually all "levels" of driving, from mild to wild. It just gets proportionally worse as the torque increases. Whether it bothers the particular driver in one car or another is a pretty individual thing.
 
The simplest solution to torque steer is rear wheel drive. I really believe we have all these front wheel drive cars because it was a cost cutting measure by the auto companies. I don't buy the traction in snow argument (sure weight helps, but I can throw a couple sand bags over the rear axle) as I have seen front wheel drives struggling to get up a mildly inclined driveway and spinning their wheels.
 
Hey 06VtecV6,what kind`ve ride do you own? Man I used to live on those Jack in the Crack tacos! 2/.99. Can`t go wrong there! Heehee!
 
Quote:


I keep reading about it in trade magazines when they review cars, but I don't know that I know what it is? What does it feel like when you're driving?
dunno.gif





Did you get your answer Roger? It is the tendancy of front wheel drive cars to try to turn (left or right depending on numerous factors) when power is applied by the engine to the drive train.

The typical drive train, front or rear drive, is an "open" setup that permits the wheels on opposite sides of the car to turn at different speeds. This is to permit a difference in wheel rotation speeds as the car tracks around corners. The "outside" wheel must travel farther than the "inside" wheel in a turn.

This "open" design results in one of the two wheels on the drive axle receiving more torque than the other.

It is very difficult to balance power application to the two wheels on the drive axle (particularly the front axle); so most makers don't even try. Most mass-market cars use suspension design and geometry to minimize the effects, it's still there to some degree.
 
Thanks Walter...I sort of surmised that from the posts. You clarified it nicely. I may have experienced it in my Maxima, but wasn't really aware of what it was at time I guess. Plus, I don't drive hard so it looks like I'm less inclined to experince it.
 
If you've got unequal length driveshafts, the problem is exaccerbated, as one will have more or less torsional rigidity, and the car will feel like it wants to turn a corner.

Equal length driveshafts, and it seems to want to pull to the straight ahead position on accerleration.
 
Torque steer is the reason all real performance cars are rear wheel drive. Front wheel drive is for economy only. Give me power oversteer any day.
 
Quote:



The typical drive train, front or rear drive, is an "open" setup that permits the wheels on opposite sides of the car to turn at different speeds. This is to permit a difference in wheel rotation speeds as the car tracks around corners. The "outside" wheel must travel farther than the "inside" wheel in a turn.

This "open" design results in one of the two wheels on the drive axle receiving more torque than the other.

It is very difficult to balance power application to the two wheels on the drive axle (particularly the front axle); so most makers don't even try. Most mass-market cars use suspension design and geometry to minimize the effects, it's still there to some degree.




This is not actually true. The device that allows the wheels to turn at different speeds is called a "differential." By definition, an open differential applies equal torque to both output shafts; both drive wheels will apply equal power to the ground. The problem with an open diff is that if one wheel has no traction, there can be no torque applied to it, and therefore by definition there is no torque applied to the other wheel. An example is when one wheel is on a patch of ice: it spins, and the other wheel remains stationary, so you go nowhere.

The limited slip differential is an attempt to solve this problem. With an LSD, if one wheel is moving faster than the other, the differential applies more torque to the slower-moving wheel. Most cars have open differentials.

See howstuffworks for explanations:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm

Matt
'99 Saab 9³
 
You're speaking more in theory than in practice. As mentioned above, if your car is set up with unequal length halfshafts, they will each have different torsional rigidity. That results in one wheel getting torque sooner than the other, and under heavy acceleration, that wheel will 'drive' the car, resulting in torque steer. Try doing burnouts with an open setup - if you have equal traction on both sides, the same tire will always break loose.
 
Quote:


Quote:



The typical drive train, front or rear drive, is an "open" setup that permits the wheels on opposite sides of the car to turn at different speeds. This is to permit a difference in wheel rotation speeds as the car tracks around corners. The "outside" wheel must travel farther than the "inside" wheel in a turn.

This "open" design results in one of the two wheels on the drive axle receiving more torque than the other.

It is very difficult to balance power application to the two wheels on the drive axle (particularly the front axle); so most makers don't even try. Most mass-market cars use suspension design and geometry to minimize the effects, it's still there to some degree.




This is not actually true. The device that allows the wheels to turn at different speeds is called a "differential." By definition, an open differential applies equal torque to both output shafts; both drive wheels will apply equal power to the ground. The problem with an open diff is that if one wheel has no traction, there can be no torque applied to it, and therefore by definition there is no torque applied to the other wheel. An example is when one wheel is on a patch of ice: it spins, and the other wheel remains stationary, so you go nowhere.

The limited slip differential is an attempt to solve this problem. With an LSD, if one wheel is moving faster than the other, the differential applies more torque to the slower-moving wheel. Most cars have open differentials.

See howstuffworks for explanations:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm

Matt
'99 Saab 9³




If what I said was incorrect, torque steer would not exist. Most will agree it does.

If your statement highlighted above described actual events your drive tires wouldn't spin on ice; and most of us know that isn't true in practice. You say as much in your next sentence, so perhaps you typed something different than you intended to say.

The actual technical discussion is probably beyond the scope of this thread and isn't addressed on the link you provided. The "How stuff works" site is ok for light "how" questions but rarely delves into the more complex "why" questions. I think the author of the article that repeatedly says something like "the open differential always applies the same torque to both wheels" is saying something different than this thread is addressing. The sum of the power to both wheels is the same, but the split is constantly varied to maintain constant speed around corners.

The only differentials that apply the "same torque" to both wheels are LSD's that have locked up, or "full lockers" that mechanically lock axles together to ensure that all wheels turn at the same rate. This is the only way to get the same torque applied to both or all wheels .

That is not the same as saying the same torque is applied to the ends of the drive axles. That may well occur, but the open differential design is actually set up to turn the axle offering *the least* resistance faster than the axle offering more resistance. This way the axle on the *inside* of a turn slows down while the axle on the *outside* of a turn speeds up keeping the vehicle relative speed even.

Some of the other posters have touched on some of the "whys". Obviously it is a complex set of events or the many experienced and professionally trained engineers that first put high output engines in new front wheel drive cars wouldn't have been so surprised when they were undrivable.

The popular engineering consensus appears to be that unequal drive axle lengths results in torque steer. As desribed, the longer drive axle twists more (or flexes or perhaps even offers greater resistance due to greater total mass) momentarily with the effect that the wheel on the shorter drive axle actually sees the engine torque a split second sooner and takes off while the wheel on the longer axle is still waiting for the slack to take up in the longer axle assembly. Depending on steering geometry and other factors, this will tend to turn the steering wheel (and the other drive wheel) toward the side of the car with the longer shaft; which serves to amplify the problem because now you are making a right (or left) turn.

It never mattered much to us on rear wheel drive cars, but most of us "Hot Rodders" learned pretty quick which wheel was going to breal loose first (right rear on all the cars I owned). That way, you knew which way to turn the steering wheel when you floored it to impress your friends when you took off. If you wanted smoke and noise you did it on a hard right turn (made the right rear tire light). If you wanted to leave fast you did it on a hard left turn (transferred weight to the right rear to make it stick and move the car).
laugh.gif
 
Quote:


The only differentials that apply the "same torque" to both wheels are LSD's that have locked up, or "full lockers" that mechanically lock axles together to ensure that all wheels turn at the same rate. This is the only way to get the same torque applied to both or all wheels .




Nope, you are wrong.

A locker, or a spool provides constant angular velocity to both wheels. There can be 100% torque going to one wheel, and none to the other.

An open diff, if you break it down to it's simplest is simply a see saw, or beam balance. the loads on each side of the pinion MUST be the same, i.e. torqu is equal, and the drive is limited to the torque application of the wheel with the least traction.
 
Quote:


The sum of the power to both wheels is the same, but the split is constantly varied to maintain constant speed around corners.

The only differentials that apply the "same torque" to both wheels are LSD's that have locked up, or "full lockers" that mechanically lock axles together to ensure that all wheels turn at the same rate. This is the only way to get the same torque applied to both or all wheels .




This is still backwards. Open differentials apply the same torque to both outputs, by definition. This can result in different angular velocity of the two outputs. Locked differentials apply the same angular velocity, which can result in different torques. I'll work through the ice example again to explain it.

Let's say you have an open differential, and your right wheel is on ice, and it's spinning at a constant velocity. From Newton's laws, we know F=m*a (or actually, T=I*a). At constant velocity, a=0, so we know that the sum of all torques on that wheel is zero. For simplicity, let's say this is really slick ice, and so there is no friction between the tire and the ground. The only torque acting on the wheel is the right output of the differential, so it must be zero. That means that the left output must also be zero, and that explains why the left wheel is just sitting still, not driving your car at all.

Now let's consider the case of an LSD. The torque at the left output is equal to the torque at the right output plus some torque based on the difference between the velocities:
T_left = T_right + C(T_right-T_left)
So there is some torque applied on the right side, and the right wheel drives you forward off the ice.

In any case, back to the issue of torque steer. By the way, an LSD could actually create torque steer if you partially lost traction in one wheel: the other wheel would be driven with more torque, causing the vehicle to steer towards the wheel with reduced traction. But we're mostly interested in other causes of torque steer, so I'll keep my discussion to open differentials from here on.

Quote:


The popular engineering consensus appears to be that unequal drive axle lengths results in torque steer. As desribed, the longer drive axle twists more (or flexes or perhaps even offers greater resistance due to greater total mass) momentarily with the effect that the wheel on the shorter drive axle actually sees the engine torque a split second sooner and takes off while the wheel on the longer axle is still waiting for the slack to take up in the longer axle assembly. Depending on steering geometry and other factors, this will tend to turn the steering wheel (and the other drive wheel) toward the side of the car with the longer shaft; which serves to amplify the problem because now you are making a right (or left) turn.




Torque steer is caused not by the wheels directly steering the car, but by the force of the drive wheel against the ground creating a torquing moment about the steering axis of the wheel. This is why it is an issue only on FWD cars, since RWD cars do not have pivot points that the drive wheels turn around. The issues you described with a RWD burnout probably have as much to do with unequal friction between the two tires and unequal weight distribution left to right as they do with the principles behind FWD torque steer.

Here's what's happening in torque steer: The torque on your steering wheel is the sum of two steering torques (call them Ts_left and Ts_right) on the two front wheels. These steering torques are the product of the force the tire is applying to the ground (F_left and F_right) and the distance between the center of the contact patch and the axis about which that wheel turns (call that distance d_left and d_right):
Torque Steer = Ts_left + Ts_right = F_left*d_left + F_right*d_right
(note that d_left and d_right are usually opposite in sign, so the sum, in a perfect world, would be zero).

You experience torque steer when one of two things happens: either Ts_left does not equal Ts_right, or d_left is not exactly the negative of d_right. How can this happen? The case I experience most (my car is simply a less-powerful version of that mighty torque-steerer the Viggen) is when I get on a road that has some crowning or some rutting. Let's say that my left wheels are on flat road, but my right wheels are on a patch of asphalt that slopes down from left to right. The effect of this is to shift the contact patch on the right wheel towards the left, or towards the center of the car. All other things equal, F_left and F_right (the differential output torques divided by the radius of my wheels) are equal, but now d_right has gotten smaller, while d_left is unchanged. So the left wheel applies a greater torque about its steering axis than the right one, which makes the steering wheel turn to the right.

Other things can cause differences between d_left and d_right: uneven flexing of bushings, unequal camber or caster of the wheels, and any geometrical imperfection. F_left and F_right might also be different if there is internal friction that is different between the two wheels: an imperfect differential, a bad bearing, or the effects you mentioned from unequal drive shafts. There are so many possible causes for torque steer that what is the biggest contributor in any given car is probably different from one car to the next. The point is that any imperfections in manufacture or in road surface in a FWD car can cause torque steer, so the best way to avoid it is to use RWD. Torque steer in a FWD car can be reduced by using suspension geometries that minimize the possible differences between d_left and d_right. One easy-to-visualize way to do this is to use narrow tires: the contact patch can't move as far on a narrow tire as it can on a wide one. Of course, narrow tires don't look cool
smile.gif
Stiff bushings that keep suspension components where they belong can also help.

Hope that helps some people understand torque steer. Keep two hands on the wheel if you're driving a powerful FWD car hard, but if you're not pushing it, you can generally ignore the nit-picking that Car & Driver and the other mags do.

Matt
'99 Saab 9³
 
On a front wheel drive car, the suspension bushings are compressed when under hard acceleration, and will usually toe in, causing the car to veer to one side or the other.
the stiffness of the axles of a street car doesn't come into play. The tires are distorting along with the bushings. The steel in an axle doesn't twist, and if it did, it would retract to it's original position in a millisecond.
 
Quote:


The steel in an axle doesn't twist, and if it did, it would retract to it's original position in a millisecond.



As long as the load was removed in that exact same millisecond.

And by the way, it does twist, or it's not transmitting torque, unless it has infinite torsional rigidity.

edit...and toe in tends not to cause anywhere near as much instability as toe out.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom