What is the iron issue with Mobil 1?
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OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Not really, since he is basing his statements around actually being inside the engine, not just "well it hasn't blown up yet."
Bingo!
Not really, since he is basing his statements around actually being inside the engine, not just "well it hasn't blown up yet."
Bingo!
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
In regards to iron:
1. Most crankshafts are iron
2. Piston rings are iron
3. Most engines have iron blocks, and of most that don't, they have iron sleeves
4. On an engine with a roller valvetrain, would you consider this an issue? Since there would be no possibility of the iron coming from the camshaft then.
5. Many engines have iron timing gears
in regards to the cleaning:
I don't know about the IRON portion of this, but my FIRST run of M1 in my 5.4L yielded a large accumulation of hard carbon particles in my oil filter.. It DOES do the cleaning. My subsequent Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck run yielded more of this this.
Yes, there are other iron parts in an engine, but camshafts face unique wear properties than liners, gears and journals. The camshaft IVA test just happens to be the one M1 allegedly did not pass. Roller rockers don't really change anything as camshafts fail all the time with rollers, even the venerable Honda K-engine which has suffered odd galling, something you would think wouldnt happen to rollers. Funny enough, some of those engines with the chewed up cams were running M1 in the recommended weight of 5w30. I have no doubt that M1 cleans (or used to with prior formulas) carbon, sludge and some varnish. It's generally been a good oil that flows(ed) decently well, cleans, keeps clean and protects bottom-ends nicely, but carbon deposits are non-metallic and are soluble given the right solvent. Ferric particulate wear is just an emulsion of solid particles and even water would do a great job of washing it away. So you can see why I don't buy the "cleaning out stuff left behind by the competitors product" at all.
In regards to iron:
1. Most crankshafts are iron
2. Piston rings are iron
3. Most engines have iron blocks, and of most that don't, they have iron sleeves
4. On an engine with a roller valvetrain, would you consider this an issue? Since there would be no possibility of the iron coming from the camshaft then.
5. Many engines have iron timing gears
in regards to the cleaning:
I don't know about the IRON portion of this, but my FIRST run of M1 in my 5.4L yielded a large accumulation of hard carbon particles in my oil filter.. It DOES do the cleaning. My subsequent Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck run yielded more of this this.
Yes, there are other iron parts in an engine, but camshafts face unique wear properties than liners, gears and journals. The camshaft IVA test just happens to be the one M1 allegedly did not pass. Roller rockers don't really change anything as camshafts fail all the time with rollers, even the venerable Honda K-engine which has suffered odd galling, something you would think wouldnt happen to rollers. Funny enough, some of those engines with the chewed up cams were running M1 in the recommended weight of 5w30. I have no doubt that M1 cleans (or used to with prior formulas) carbon, sludge and some varnish. It's generally been a good oil that flows(ed) decently well, cleans, keeps clean and protects bottom-ends nicely, but carbon deposits are non-metallic and are soluble given the right solvent. Ferric particulate wear is just an emulsion of solid particles and even water would do a great job of washing it away. So you can see why I don't buy the "cleaning out stuff left behind by the competitors product" at all.
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Do any particular weighs of M1 show more fe wear metals vs their other weights? Just wondering,because I read here that their different weights contain different base stocks,etc,if that would even make any difference?
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OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: element_42
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
In regards to iron:
1. Most crankshafts are iron
2. Piston rings are iron
3. Most engines have iron blocks, and of most that don't, they have iron sleeves
4. On an engine with a roller valvetrain, would you consider this an issue? Since there would be no possibility of the iron coming from the camshaft then.
5. Many engines have iron timing gears
in regards to the cleaning:
I don't know about the IRON portion of this, but my FIRST run of M1 in my 5.4L yielded a large accumulation of hard carbon particles in my oil filter.. It DOES do the cleaning. My subsequent Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck run yielded more of this this.
Yes, there are other iron parts in an engine, but camshafts face unique wear properties than liners, gears and journals. The camshaft IVA test just happens to be the one M1 allegedly did not pass. Roller rockers don't really change anything as camshafts fail all the time with rollers, even the venerable Honda K-engine which has suffered odd galling, something you would think wouldnt happen to rollers. Funny enough, some of those engines with the chewed up cams were running M1 in the recommended weight of 5w30. I have no doubt that M1 cleans (or used to with prior formulas) carbon, sludge and some varnish. It's generally been a good oil that flows(ed) decently well, cleans, keeps clean and protects bottom-ends nicely, but carbon deposits are non-metallic and are soluble given the right solvent. Ferric particulate wear is just an emulsion of solid particles and even water would do a great job of washing it away. So you can see why I don't buy the "cleaning out stuff left behind by the competitors product" at all.
Camshafts do not fail all the time with rollers. I cannot remember the last time I've heard of an LSx, HEMI, SBC, SBF or SBM have a failed roller cam that wasn't directly related to the LIFTER failing. Even the Ford Modular engines which are OHC, but with roller followers, do not have this issue.
My beehive springs are probably more than twice as heavy as the Honda K-series springs. I'm going to play the faulty cam card on that one. Just like Toyota with the Tundra engine.
The K-motion springs that are headed for my heads are 495lbs open. Lifters are the original from 1987. Both cams that came out of my engine have had zero visible wear on them.
My cleaning results were within the last 6 months. We've only owned the truck since February and I've put 25,000Km on it since then. Two OCI's, both with M1, both with evidence of cleaning.
The allusion to the "washing away" is the assumption that there is varnish or sludge being left behind with other oils that has iron particles suspended in it. M1 then dissolves the varnish, freeing the iron, and subsequently spiking the reading in the used oil analysis.
Of course the way to TEST for this would be a TEAR DOWN. Like I've done with my junk........... No wear. And that includes two cams, 330,000Km, and the original lifters.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
In regards to iron:
1. Most crankshafts are iron
2. Piston rings are iron
3. Most engines have iron blocks, and of most that don't, they have iron sleeves
4. On an engine with a roller valvetrain, would you consider this an issue? Since there would be no possibility of the iron coming from the camshaft then.
5. Many engines have iron timing gears
in regards to the cleaning:
I don't know about the IRON portion of this, but my FIRST run of M1 in my 5.4L yielded a large accumulation of hard carbon particles in my oil filter.. It DOES do the cleaning. My subsequent Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck run yielded more of this this.
Yes, there are other iron parts in an engine, but camshafts face unique wear properties than liners, gears and journals. The camshaft IVA test just happens to be the one M1 allegedly did not pass. Roller rockers don't really change anything as camshafts fail all the time with rollers, even the venerable Honda K-engine which has suffered odd galling, something you would think wouldnt happen to rollers. Funny enough, some of those engines with the chewed up cams were running M1 in the recommended weight of 5w30. I have no doubt that M1 cleans (or used to with prior formulas) carbon, sludge and some varnish. It's generally been a good oil that flows(ed) decently well, cleans, keeps clean and protects bottom-ends nicely, but carbon deposits are non-metallic and are soluble given the right solvent. Ferric particulate wear is just an emulsion of solid particles and even water would do a great job of washing it away. So you can see why I don't buy the "cleaning out stuff left behind by the competitors product" at all.
Camshafts do not fail all the time with rollers. I cannot remember the last time I've heard of an LSx, HEMI, SBC, SBF or SBM have a failed roller cam that wasn't directly related to the LIFTER failing. Even the Ford Modular engines which are OHC, but with roller followers, do not have this issue.
My beehive springs are probably more than twice as heavy as the Honda K-series springs. I'm going to play the faulty cam card on that one. Just like Toyota with the Tundra engine.
The K-motion springs that are headed for my heads are 495lbs open. Lifters are the original from 1987. Both cams that came out of my engine have had zero visible wear on them.
My cleaning results were within the last 6 months. We've only owned the truck since February and I've put 25,000Km on it since then. Two OCI's, both with M1, both with evidence of cleaning.
The allusion to the "washing away" is the assumption that there is varnish or sludge being left behind with other oils that has iron particles suspended in it. M1 then dissolves the varnish, freeing the iron, and subsequently spiking the reading in the used oil analysis.
Of course the way to TEST for this would be a TEAR DOWN. Like I've done with my junk........... No wear. And that includes two cams, 330,000Km, and the original lifters.
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I`m staring at this big sexy jug of $12 Mobil 1 15W50 silver cap that`s going in my car`s belly in about 2 months. :^)
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
... The allusion to the "washing away" is the assumption that there is varnish or sludge being left behind with other oils that has iron particles suspended in it. M1 then dissolves the varnish, freeing the iron, and subsequently spiking the reading in the used oil analysis.
Of course the way to TEST for this would be a TEAR DOWN. Like I've done with my junk........... No wear. And that includes two cams, 330,000Km, and the original lifters.
Yeah, but if you read my post above, I ran it from 5K KM in my truck up until 80K KM and I had high IRON on all used oil analysis so if I used it in a new engine that only had a couple short runs on dino in the beginning and then was run exclusively on M1, why then was the IRON still high?
... The allusion to the "washing away" is the assumption that there is varnish or sludge being left behind with other oils that has iron particles suspended in it. M1 then dissolves the varnish, freeing the iron, and subsequently spiking the reading in the used oil analysis.
Of course the way to TEST for this would be a TEAR DOWN. Like I've done with my junk........... No wear. And that includes two cams, 330,000Km, and the original lifters.
Yeah, but if you read my post above, I ran it from 5K KM in my truck up until 80K KM and I had high IRON on all used oil analysis so if I used it in a new engine that only had a couple short runs on dino in the beginning and then was run exclusively on M1, why then was the IRON still high?
Originally Posted By: tig1
Isn't even 75 PPM iron still in the very acceptable range?
Depends how you look at it. I look at it this way. If less than 150ppm is acceptable and M1 was giving me 40-50ppm and Amsoil is giving me single-digits, wouldn't Amsoil be a better choice then?
I mean less metal should be better, I would think... Even if we are talking PPM's. Plus Amsoil is only a few bucks extra up here so why take the chance?
Isn't even 75 PPM iron still in the very acceptable range?
Depends how you look at it. I look at it this way. If less than 150ppm is acceptable and M1 was giving me 40-50ppm and Amsoil is giving me single-digits, wouldn't Amsoil be a better choice then?
I mean less metal should be better, I would think... Even if we are talking PPM's. Plus Amsoil is only a few bucks extra up here so why take the chance?
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
... The allusion to the "washing away" is the assumption that there is varnish or sludge being left behind with other oils that has iron particles suspended in it. M1 then dissolves the varnish, freeing the iron, and subsequently spiking the reading in the used oil analysis.
Of course the way to TEST for this would be a TEAR DOWN. Like I've done with my junk........... No wear. And that includes two cams, 330,000Km, and the original lifters.
Yeah, but if you read my post above, I ran it from 5K KM in my truck up until 80K KM and I had high IRON on all used oil analysis so if I used it in a new engine that only had a couple short runs on dino in the beginning and then was run exclusively on M1, why then was the IRON still high?
StevieC
You say your iron was high, what was it?
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
... The allusion to the "washing away" is the assumption that there is varnish or sludge being left behind with other oils that has iron particles suspended in it. M1 then dissolves the varnish, freeing the iron, and subsequently spiking the reading in the used oil analysis.
Of course the way to TEST for this would be a TEAR DOWN. Like I've done with my junk........... No wear. And that includes two cams, 330,000Km, and the original lifters.
Yeah, but if you read my post above, I ran it from 5K KM in my truck up until 80K KM and I had high IRON on all used oil analysis so if I used it in a new engine that only had a couple short runs on dino in the beginning and then was run exclusively on M1, why then was the IRON still high?
StevieC
You say your iron was high, what was it?
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Here's a story for you...
Before I was a BITOG member and my Santa Fe was new (after break-in) I used Mobil 1 Synthetic 5w30 and changed according to the owners manual at 6K KM (3500 Miles) not knowing any better I did this for 80K KM (50K miles). When I bought the Santa Fe I bought a ton of M1 because I had a way of getting it cheaper than retail at the time. (no longer have this connection) I literally had about 20 jugs.
I joined BITOG and learned all about used oil analysis etc. so wanting the best for my truck I did a used oil analysis. I got back the results and all the numbers were in check and quite low (including iron at 8ppm).
I kept using Mobil and then I read about the hoopla that apparently they had changed to GRP-III as a part of or as their main basetock for oil. Thought nothing of it at the time.
So I get to the end of my warranty with Hyundai at 100K KM (60K miles) and I see this stuff called Amsoil. So I thought I would try some. I buy the SSO stuff which is just new and put it in for a couple of changes and do a used oil analysis. I notice that the wear numbers on the used oil analysis are slightly lower but the Iron is almost in half at 4ppm. I figure this is good so I want to keep using it and seeing as I don't have Mobil left I continue on.
Then I read here about all the Iron spikes etc. and this has got me curious.
So one OCI later I dump my Amsoil and put back my trusty (good until this point) Mobil 5w30 back in. I run it for 6K KM and dump it out, then refill with more and drive to 6K KM and send in a used oil analysis. I get back the results and the Iron is at 48ppm!
Scared for dear life, and before reading Doug's article I empty it out and put back in my Amsoil and drive it 6K KM and do a used oil analysis and it's back to around 4ppm again.
Very happy that I adverted disaster I check the next fill of Amsoil and again I see 4ppm.
I then read Doug's article in the meantime and see that higher Iron PPM doesn't necessarily equate to higher wear.
I put Mobil back in for one last try and again it tests around 40ppm.
While I didn't notice any performance change or metal filings in my oil pan, on the drain plug or in my EAO filter with FilterMag there is definitely something spiking these numbers in my engine when it comes to Iron and I just can't sleep at night IMO, taking a chance that I could be risking the engine with these numbers.
So I switched back to Amsoil and stuck with it. Since then I have tried Pennzoil Platinum and some Dino's that peaked my interest and none of them that I had a used oil analysis done on showed the Iron levels that M1 did.
I'm not saying that this in anyway equates to M1 causing wear, but I sure as heck am not going to see in time what happens.
If Amsoil isn't that much more than M1 and doesn't report those same elevated numbers to me it seems like a logical choice.
Cheap insurance I guess...
Details are here in this post above...
Here's a story for you...
Before I was a BITOG member and my Santa Fe was new (after break-in) I used Mobil 1 Synthetic 5w30 and changed according to the owners manual at 6K KM (3500 Miles) not knowing any better I did this for 80K KM (50K miles). When I bought the Santa Fe I bought a ton of M1 because I had a way of getting it cheaper than retail at the time. (no longer have this connection) I literally had about 20 jugs.
I joined BITOG and learned all about used oil analysis etc. so wanting the best for my truck I did a used oil analysis. I got back the results and all the numbers were in check and quite low (including iron at 8ppm).
I kept using Mobil and then I read about the hoopla that apparently they had changed to GRP-III as a part of or as their main basetock for oil. Thought nothing of it at the time.
So I get to the end of my warranty with Hyundai at 100K KM (60K miles) and I see this stuff called Amsoil. So I thought I would try some. I buy the SSO stuff which is just new and put it in for a couple of changes and do a used oil analysis. I notice that the wear numbers on the used oil analysis are slightly lower but the Iron is almost in half at 4ppm. I figure this is good so I want to keep using it and seeing as I don't have Mobil left I continue on.
Then I read here about all the Iron spikes etc. and this has got me curious.
So one OCI later I dump my Amsoil and put back my trusty (good until this point) Mobil 5w30 back in. I run it for 6K KM and dump it out, then refill with more and drive to 6K KM and send in a used oil analysis. I get back the results and the Iron is at 48ppm!
Scared for dear life, and before reading Doug's article I empty it out and put back in my Amsoil and drive it 6K KM and do a used oil analysis and it's back to around 4ppm again.
I then read Doug's article in the meantime and see that higher Iron PPM doesn't necessarily equate to higher wear.
I put Mobil back in for one last try and again it tests around 40ppm.
While I didn't notice any performance change or metal filings in my oil pan, on the drain plug or in my EAO filter with FilterMag there is definitely something spiking these numbers in my engine when it comes to Iron and I just can't sleep at night IMO, taking a chance that I could be risking the engine with these numbers.
So I switched back to Amsoil and stuck with it. Since then I have tried Pennzoil Platinum and some Dino's that peaked my interest and none of them that I had a used oil analysis done on showed the Iron levels that M1 did.
I'm not saying that this in anyway equates to M1 causing wear, but I sure as heck am not going to see in time what happens.
If Amsoil isn't that much more than M1 and doesn't report those same elevated numbers to me it seems like a logical choice.
Cheap insurance I guess...
Details are here in this post above...
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: tig1
Isn't even 75 PPM iron still in the very acceptable range?
Depends how you look at it. I look at it this way. If less than 150ppm is acceptable and Mobil 1 was giving me 40-50ppm and Amsoil is giving me single-digits, wouldn't Amsoil be a better choice then?
I mean less metal should be better, I would think... Even if we are talking PPM's. Plus Amsoil is only a few bucks extra up here so why take the chance?
Not really a chance at all since Mobil 1 oiled engines last for a very long time.
You guys all say used oil analysis are important but ignor the acceptable iron limit that used oil analysis espouse. The more I here this high iron thing ,when it's really low, the more I think you guys are chasing the wind on this one. If your iron is well below 150PPM then where is the UOA issue?
Originally Posted By: tig1
Isn't even 75 PPM iron still in the very acceptable range?
Depends how you look at it. I look at it this way. If less than 150ppm is acceptable and Mobil 1 was giving me 40-50ppm and Amsoil is giving me single-digits, wouldn't Amsoil be a better choice then?
I mean less metal should be better, I would think... Even if we are talking PPM's. Plus Amsoil is only a few bucks extra up here so why take the chance?
Not really a chance at all since Mobil 1 oiled engines last for a very long time.
You guys all say used oil analysis are important but ignor the acceptable iron limit that used oil analysis espouse. The more I here this high iron thing ,when it's really low, the more I think you guys are chasing the wind on this one. If your iron is well below 150PPM then where is the UOA issue?
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Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I`m staring at this big sexy jug of $12 Mobil 1 15W50 silver cap that`s going in my car`s belly in about 2 months. :^)
I just put that oil in my Cavalier and Toyota last week, as I have since the Cavalier was new(now 213,000) and I changed the Toyota to Mobil 1 15W-50 at 40,000 miles(now 301,000) My 2008 Silverado will get Mobil 1 15W-50 for its 5th OCI this Wednesday.
I`m staring at this big sexy jug of $12 Mobil 1 15W50 silver cap that`s going in my car`s belly in about 2 months. :^)
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Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Not really, since he is basing his statements around actually being inside the engine, not just "well it hasn't blown up yet."
Then all we need find is ONE person who has torn down a 5w-20 engine and found nothing wrong ...and all of the thick thin deal is over and done with? A data point of ONE?
He speaks for all users?
Now in reality I think M1 is a fine product, but let's keep our intellectual honesty healthy hear.
Not really, since he is basing his statements around actually being inside the engine, not just "well it hasn't blown up yet."
Then all we need find is ONE person who has torn down a 5w-20 engine and found nothing wrong ...and all of the thick thin deal is over and done with? A data point of ONE?
He speaks for all users?
Now in reality I think M1 is a fine product, but let's keep our intellectual honesty healthy hear.
Originally Posted By: tig1
StevieC
Just saw your last post. Heck 48PPM is great. Way way below the acceptable level.
Sure, but 4-5ppm with Amsoil is way better is it not?
StevieC
Just saw your last post. Heck 48PPM is great. Way way below the acceptable level.
Sure, but 4-5ppm with Amsoil is way better is it not?
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: tig1
StevieC
Just saw your last post. Heck 48PPM is great. Way way below the acceptable level.
Sure, but 4-5ppm with Amsoil is way better is it not?
StevieC
It doesn't mean anything. The difference between 4-54PPM doesn't translate into real engine wear or shorten engine life. A few PPM is nothing compared to a million. Maybe you will get this . you have a quarter, compare that to a million quarters or $250,000. The quarter is nothing.
Originally Posted By: tig1
StevieC
Just saw your last post. Heck 48PPM is great. Way way below the acceptable level.
Sure, but 4-5ppm with Amsoil is way better is it not?
StevieC
It doesn't mean anything. The difference between 4-54PPM doesn't translate into real engine wear or shorten engine life. A few PPM is nothing compared to a million. Maybe you will get this . you have a quarter, compare that to a million quarters or $250,000. The quarter is nothing.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: tig1
StevieC
Just saw your last post. Heck 48PPM is great. Way way below the acceptable level.
Sure, but 4-5ppm with Amsoil is way better is it not?
Depends. If Amsoil was used after the M1 flushed the iron out of the engine then Amsoil should show lower levels of iron but that doesn't mean that it is performing better. If Amsoil (or another brand) was used previously and created the iron and then M1 was run to flush it out when the M1 reading is high are you going to blame the previous fill of Amsoil?
Originally Posted By: tig1
StevieC
Just saw your last post. Heck 48PPM is great. Way way below the acceptable level.
Sure, but 4-5ppm with Amsoil is way better is it not?
Depends. If Amsoil was used after the M1 flushed the iron out of the engine then Amsoil should show lower levels of iron but that doesn't mean that it is performing better. If Amsoil (or another brand) was used previously and created the iron and then M1 was run to flush it out when the M1 reading is high are you going to blame the previous fill of Amsoil?
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