What is the iron issue with Mobil 1?

[ADFD1]

Originally Posted By: wannafbody
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: tig1
StevieC

Just saw your last post. Heck 48PPM is great. Way way below the acceptable level.
Sure, but 4-5ppm with Amsoil is way better is it not?


Depends. If Amsoil was used after the M1 flushed the iron out of the engine then Amsoil should show lower levels of iron but that doesn't mean that it is performing better. If Amsoil (or another brand) was used previously and created the iron and then M1 was run to flush it out when the M1 reading is high are you going to blame the previous fill of Amsoil?


The knife cuts both ways, so we can reverse the story. Mobil 1 seems to show higher iron, and is always the center of the iron debate, even if it is slight, its still higher. I for one don't buy into the cleaning and releasing iron stories. Sorry. I'm with StevieC, 4-5 ppm of iron beats 48 ppm of iron.

AD

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: wannafbody
Depends. If Amsoil was used after the M1 flushed the iron out of the engine then Amsoil should show lower levels of iron but that doesn't mean that it is performing better. If Amsoil (or another brand) was used previously and created the iron and then M1 was run to flush it out when the M1 reading is high are you going to blame the previous fill of Amsoil?


As you can see in my post above, I ran M1 exclusively from the time my engine was brand new (after break in on dino) and the used oil analysis were between 40-50ppm, then I switched away and they dropped immediately, and when I switched back they immediately jumped back up. So that IMO, proves the M1 formulation is the cause of the jump and not anything left by any other oil, because it was only M1 in there previously.


Originally Posted By: tig1
StevieC
It doesn't mean anything. The difference between 4-54PPM doesn't translate into real engine wear or shorten engine life. A few PPM is nothing compared to a million. Maybe you will get this . you have a quarter, compare that to a million quarters or $250,000. The quarter is nothing.


I'm sticking with the lower numbers... Because although $0.25 is nothing out of $250,000, it's still a quarter better in my pocket than not.

A quarter is a quarter and one day it might be more important than we seem to be giving it credit for today.

Also why is it that M1 needs to have that extra quarter, why can't it do the same at other oils, including Dino's which don't seem to need the quarter. If it's such a premium oil why can it return IRON numbers like the Dino I was using during break in when IRON should have been higher because of break in but was lower than M1 after break-in?

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: ADFD1
Originally Posted By: wannafbody
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: tig1
StevieC

Just saw your last post. Heck 48PPM is great. Way way below the acceptable level.
Sure, but 4-5ppm with Amsoil is way better is it not?


Depends. If Amsoil was used after the M1 flushed the iron out of the engine then Amsoil should show lower levels of iron but that doesn't mean that it is performing better. If Amsoil (or another brand) was used previously and created the iron and then M1 was run to flush it out when the M1 reading is high are you going to blame the previous fill of Amsoil?


The knife cuts both ways, so we can reverse the story. Mobil 1 seems to show higher iron, and is always the center of the iron debate, even if it is slight, its still higher. I for one don't buy into the cleaning and releasing iron stories. Sorry. I'm with StevieC, 4-5 ppm of iron beats 48 ppm of iron.

AD


Your chasing the wind. According to BITOGs ,What is oil Analysis, The acceptable range for iron is 100 to 200 PPM of
iron.
You are free to conclude what you want but it's a non issue as for engine wear and engine longivity.
Remember it's a quarter compared to $250,000.

 

[StevieC]

Tig1, Take this the right way, but you are missing the point. I could care less if it was $50,000 out of $250,000. The point is, is that M1 prides itself as being a "Premium Synthetic" and "Nothing Outperforms Mobil-1" and yet it can't match the Iron numbers of even the cheapest Dino in the used oil analysis section of this board.

Regardless if it causes wear or not, paying top dollar should yield top results, not just satisfactory "within/below acceptable limits" results but results that are as good as its competition or better.

NO?

I pay the extra for Amsoil because I get these results, only time will tell if this extra few bucks was needed or not, in your claims they aren't but, 1, I'm not going to stand around and find out and, 2, I want darn good results for my darn good money which M1 isn't providing me over conventional so if I'm going to pay for a "premium sythetic" I want premium results. I'm the customer and what I want needs to matter, because it's my money!

 

[tig1]

StevieC,

The iron thing you speak of means nothing and has no affect over the life of an engine. The bigger issue of M1 compared to dino is an apples oranges thing. We all know the benifits of synt. over dino.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: tig1
StevieC,

The iron thing you speak of means nothing and has no affect over the life of an engine. The bigger issue of M1 compared to dino is an apples oranges thing. We all know the benifits of synt. over dino.

I have seen engines fail on synthetic just the same as on dino, I have seen engines go as long on dino as they have on synthetic.

It depends on the applications, driving patterns, maintenance, climate and a whole host of other factors IMO. I think that people who are anal about their vehicles, usually use synthetic and the engine lasts a long time because of their analness and not the synthetic. There are some exceptions but not enough to warrant 99% of the population to switch to Syn over Dino IMO.

As for the Apples/Oranges thing with M1 and IRON, see my post above. That is my reasoning and I can't explain it any other way.

I'm glad M1 works for you, but for my money I will take it where it works for me and to the company that makes me feel comfortable and sleep at night knowing that I won't have engine problems because of high Iron levels whether they are within acceptable limits or not, my expectations have not been met.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Tig1, Take this the right way, but you are missing the point. I could care less if it was $50,000 out of $250,000. The point is, is that M1 prides itself as being a "Premium Synthetic" and "Nothing Outperforms Mobil-1" and yet it can't match the Iron numbers of even the cheapest Dino in the used oil analysis section of this board.

Regardless if it causes wear or not, paying top dollar should yield top results, not just satisfactory "within/below acceptable limits" results but results that are as good as its competition or better.

NO?

I pay the extra for Amsoil because I get these results, only time will tell if this extra few bucks was needed or not, in your claims they aren't but, 1, I'm not going to stand around and find out and, 2, I want darn good results for my darn good money which M1 isn't providing me over conventional so if I'm going to pay for a "premium sythetic" I want premium results. I'm the customer and what I want needs to matter, because it's my money!


Amsoil is a great oil. No problem there. But the constant drum beat of the high iron fault with M1 is baseless. IMO. Not only that but the two used oil analysis I did last year showed low iron. So what. It still meant nothing compared to the acceptable range.

Besides StevieC, as well as you take care of you ride it'll last longer than you'll keep it anyway. Regardless of what oil you use.

 

[tig1]

StevieC

You mean you really lose sleep over this oil thing. I haven't lost sleep over oil for 31 years. Oh! that's how long I've used M1. Maybe after 31 years you will argue the merits of Amsoil to some young fella.

 

[StevieC]

I intend on keeping my Santa Fe forever and never parting with it until there is nothing left of it or until, heaven forbid, I have an accident and it's written off.

I depend on my truck day-in/day-out and I can't really afford down time or major repairs so everything IMO, has to be the best.

I doubt that M1 would affect my engine drastically and decrease its life but I can't predict the future so I have to rely on what is known and higher than average Iron levels just don't make me feel well enough to continue using M1 so I don't.

I like that you have gone many trouble free miles on the stuff, and that you have low iron in your used oil analysis but for me it's not the same and it scares me seeing those numbers out a mostly aluminum engine (Head/Block).


Originally Posted By: tig1
StevieC

You mean you really lose sleep over this oil thing. I haven't lost sleep over oil for 31 years. Oh! that's how long I've used M1. Maybe after 31 years you will argue the merits of Amsoil to some young fella.


As posted in another thread I have a generalized anxiety problem (long story) and I certainly don't need my oil choice contributing to it.

Steve

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
I intend on keeping my Santa Fe forever and never parting with it until there is nothing left of it or until, heaven forbid, I have an accident and it's written off.

I depend on my truck day-in/day-out and I can't really afford down time or major repairs so everything IMO, has to be the best.

I doubt that M1 would affect my engine drastically and decrease its life but I can't predict the future so I have to rely on what is known and higher than average Iron levels just don't make me feel well enough to continue using M1 so I don't.

I like that you have gone many trouble free miles on the stuff, and that you have low iron in your used oil analysis but for me it's not the same and it scares me seeing those numbers out a mostly aluminum engine (Head/Block).

Let's leave it here...

StevieC

The only reason you may frieghtened is because of used oil analysis mis interpeted, and BITOG hype. I know many people that use M1 and all of them have had engines with very high mileage. 250-300,000 miles is common. No need to to worry about us poor folks down here and our worn out cars. By the way did I ever tell you I used Amsoil back in the 70s? Yes it's true. Good oil. On par with Mobil 1.

 

[UNC197]

Do you really want to keep your Santa Fe forever?

 

[crinkles]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I`m staring at this big sexy jug of $12 Mobil 1 15W50 silver cap that`s going in my car`s belly in about 2 months. :^)


you dirty dirty man.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: tig1
StevieC

The only reason you may frieghtened is because of used oil analysis mis interpeted, and BITOG hype. I know many people that use M1 and all of them have had engines with very high mileage. 250-300,000 miles is common. No need to to worry about us poor folks down here and our worn out cars. By the way did I ever tell you I used Amsoil back in the 70s? Yes it's true. Good oil. On par with Mobil 1.


Meh, for a few bucks I will stick with the Amsoil. Has some extra goodies like better NOACK (or so they claim, and I believe) and colder pour point etc.

Originally Posted By: CharlieJ
Do you really want to keep your Santa Fe forever?


I have no need to drive a new car every few years and be wasteful. I like my money in investments working for me, not me working for it. To me a car is a means to get around and not a status symbol. Nor do I care what people think of me driving an outdated model.

Repairs/maintenance, even on a 15 year old car still far outweigh the cost of a new one. So I bank the difference.

We as North Americans really need to learn to separate wants from needs so we will not find ourselves in economic messes like we are in now because we won't be consuming more than is needed or can be afforded.

 

[dsmith41]

This thread is the pinnacle of the Urinary Olympics. It's quite humorous, really.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Here's a story for you...

Before I was a BITOG member and my Santa Fe was new (after break-in) I used Mobil 1 Synthetic 5w30 and changed according to the owners manual at 6K KM (3500 Miles) not knowing any better I did this for 80K KM (50K miles). When I bought the Santa Fe I bought a ton of M1 because I had a way of getting it cheaper than retail at the time. (no longer have this connection) I literally had about 20 jugs.

I joined BITOG and learned all about used oil analysis etc. so wanting the best for my truck I did a used oil analysis. I got back the results and all the numbers were in check and quite low (including iron at 8ppm).


So.... Let me get this part clear:

You ran M1 for 80,000Km. You performed a used oil analysis on the Mobil 1. It was a "good" used oil analysis with Fe at 8ppm.

You continued to use Mobil 1 after this........

Originally Posted By: StevieC
I kept using Mobil and then I read about the hoopla that apparently they had changed to GRP-III as a part of or as their main basetock for oil. Thought nothing of it at the time.

So I get to the end of my warranty with Hyundai at 100K KM (60K miles) and I see this stuff called Amsoil. So I thought I would try some. I buy the SSO stuff which is just new and put it in for a couple of changes and do a used oil analysis. I notice that the wear numbers on the used oil analysis are slightly lower but the Iron is almost in half at 4ppm. I figure this is good so I want to keep using it and seeing as I don't have Mobil left I continue on.


So, at this point, you are seeing 4ppm less Fe in a used oil analysis. Which would likely be considered noise. You could have the same sample tested twice and have this much variance.

Quote:
Then I read here about all the Iron spikes etc. and this has got me curious.

So one OCI later I dump my Amsoil and put back my trusty (good until this point) Mobil 5w30 back in. I run it for 6K KM and dump it out, then refill with more and drive to 6K KM and send in a used oil analysis. I get back the results and the Iron is at 48ppm!

So, you go from AMSOIL to M1, and get a "spike" in Fe. This could be additive clash, this could be a huge variety of things. This is backed by the fact that your earlier sampled M1 run was on par contamination-wise with the AMSOIL run.

Quote:
Scared for dear life, and before reading Doug's article I empty it out and put back in my Amsoil and drive it 6K KM and do a used oil analysis and it's back to around 4ppm again.

Very happy that I adverted disaster I check the next fill of Amsoil and again I see 4ppm.


So back to the AMSOIL............

Quote:
I then read Doug's article in the meantime and see that higher Iron PPM doesn't necessarily equate to higher wear.

I put Mobil back in for one last try and again it tests around 40ppm.

Given the exact same scenario that precipitated your previous "spike" I don't find this surprising at all.

Quote:
While I didn't notice any performance change or metal filings in my oil pan, on the drain plug or in my EAO filter with FilterMag there is definitely something spiking these numbers in my engine when it comes to Iron and I just can't sleep at night IMO, taking a chance that I could be risking the engine with these numbers.


But there wasn't. For 100,000Km there wasn't. It wasn't until you started changing around oil brands to "see the difference" that the numbers changed.

Quote:
So I switched back to Amsoil and stuck with it. Since then I have tried Pennzoil Platinum and some Dino's that peaked my interest and none of them that I had a used oil analysis done on showed the Iron levels that M1 did.


But again, it didn't in the beginning. Trying it ONCE after an AMSOIL run, and then condemning it..... Yet for 100,000Km it was fine, and the used oil analysis "wear numbers" were on-par with you AMSOIL numbers during this period....

Quote:
I'm not saying that this in anyway equates to M1 causing wear, but I sure as heck am not going to see in time what happens.


100,000Km was a lot of time............

Quote:
If Amsoil isn't that much more than M1 and doesn't report those same elevated numbers to me it seems like a logical choice.

Cheap insurance I guess...

But again, at the beginning this was not the case. It was not until you started swapping out oil brands that you started seeing the spike. This to me should present itself as a red flag as to being an issue with the METHOD being used here.....

You run M1 for 100,000Km. It gives you "great numbers".

You run AMSOIL for an OCI. It gives you "great numbers".

You run M1 for an OCI. It gives you "freaky numbers".

You run AMSOIL for an OCI. It gives you "great numbers".

You run M1 for an OCI. It gives you "freaky numbers".

As Doug has posted on in detail, used oil analysis are a TRENDING TOOL (and shouldn't be used to gauge wear, but anyways). You cannot form a conclusion based on the above methodology. You would have had to run the M1 for numerous consecutive runs to see if the Fe dropped back down to its original sampled M1 levels.... PRE-AMSOIL, or not.

But you didn't.

Instead, you instantly became alarmed by the numbers the used oil analysis gave you, fed by the fears and fear mongering of this topic on the board, and switched it back out for AMSOIL.

The reason tig1's numbers are "normal" is likely due to the same reason your original set of numbers was "normal" until you started switching around the oil you were using. He's run ONE OIL for the duration of his car's existence. And observed the same thing you observed for your first 100,000Km.

 

[StevieC]

Read my post again... It said that I ran the Amsoil for a couple of changes. This was to ensure all the M1 was out of the system. Read it again carefully and you will see that it wasn't one right after another.

Also if you look when I switched from M1 to SSO the PPM dropped from 8 to 4, so if it was additive clash wouldn't it have gone up or remained the same?

Think about that for a minute.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Read my post again... It said that I ran the Amsoil for a couple of changes. This was to ensure all the M1 was out of the system. Read it again carefully and you will see that it wasn't one right after another.



But you only ran ONE run of Mobil 1 after your consecutive AMSOIL runs, correct?

IE, you didn't trend multiple M1 runs after your AMSOIL runs to see if the Fe would come back to where it was originally...........

 

[StevieC]

Hold on I'm re-reading my post to make sure I didn't miss something and also so I can quote sections for you. Sit tight for a minute.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Read my post again... It said that I ran the Amsoil for a couple of changes. This was to ensure all the M1 was out of the system. Read it again carefully and you will see that it wasn't one right after another.

Also if you look when I switched from M1 to SSO the PPM dropped from 8 to 4, so if it was additive clash wouldn't it have gone up or remained the same?

Think about that for a minute.



4ppm is noise. As I said, you could get that much variance just having the same sample tested twice.

My issue isn't with the numbers AMSOIL gave you after M1.

My issue is with the fact that M1 gave you good numbers, then you ran AMSOIL for a bit, then switched back to M1 and it gave you "bad" numbers, so you immediately switched back to AMSOIL without doing some consecutive M1 runs to see if the Fe dropped back down to where it was originally.

Do you see what I'm saying?

 

[StevieC]

Here is my original post:

Quote:

Here's a story for you...

Before I was a BITOG member and my Santa Fe was new (after break-in) I used Mobil 1 Synthetic 5w30 and changed according to the owners manual at 6K KM (3500 Miles) not knowing any better I did this for 80K KM (50K miles). When I bought the Santa Fe I bought a ton of M1 because I had a way of getting it cheaper than retail at the time. (no longer have this connection) I literally had about 20 jugs.

I joined BITOG and learned all about used oil analysis etc. so wanting the best for my truck I did a used oil analysis. I got back the results and all the numbers were in check and quite low (including iron at 8ppm).

I kept using Mobil and then I read about the hoopla that apparently they had changed to GRP-III as a part of or as their main basetock for oil. Thought nothing of it at the time.

So I get to the end of my warranty with Hyundai at 100K KM (60K miles) and I see this stuff called Amsoil. So I thought I would try some. I buy the SSO stuff which is just new and put it in for a couple of changes and do a used oil analysis. I notice that the wear numbers on the used oil analysis are slightly lower but the Iron is almost in half at 4ppm. I figure this is good so I want to keep using it and seeing as I don't have Mobil left I continue on.

Then I read here about all the Iron spikes etc. and this has got me curious.

So one OCI later(after the consecutive runs of Amsoil) I dump my Amsoil and put back my trusty (good until this point) Mobil 5w30 back in. I run it for 6K KM and dump it out, then refill with more and drive to 6K KM and send in a used oil analysis. I get back the results and the Iron is at 48ppm!

Scared for dear life, and before reading Doug's article I empty it out and put back in my Amsoil and drive it 6K KM and do a used oil analysis and it's back to around 4ppm again. Very happy that I adverted disaster I check the next fill of Amsoil and again I see 4ppm. (4PPM right after switching from Amsoil to M1 right away and again on the second used oil analysis)

I then read Doug's article in the meantime and see that higher Iron PPM doesn't necessarily equate to higher wear.

I put Mobil back in for one last try and again it tests around 40ppm.

While I didn't notice any performance change or metal filings in my oil pan, on the drain plug or in my EAO filter with FilterMag there is definitely something spiking these numbers in my engine when it comes to Iron and I just can't sleep at night IMO, taking a chance that I could be risking the engine with these numbers.

So I switched back to Amsoil and stuck with it. Since then I have tried Pennzoil Platinum and some Dino's that peaked my interest and none of them that I had a used oil analysis done on showed the Iron levels that M1 did.

I'm not saying that this in anyway equates to M1 causing wear, but I sure as heck am not going to see in time what happens.

If Amsoil isn't that much more than M1 and doesn't report those same elevated numbers to me it seems like a logical choice.

Cheap insurance I guess...

So if I didn't see any spikes going from M1 to Amsoil, but only saw decreases why would I see spikes going the other way if the additive packs were clashing shouldn't they clash both ways?