What is the best oil for your Honda VTEC engine? Check this out.
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"Another question"?
Wasn't that the original question?
This isn't going anywhere, for any of us.
And the fact that there have been no mass failures in the police fleet CVs using 5W-20 is NOT hearsay.... Either the fleets using 5W-20 failed en masse or they didn't. If they didn't, while they were using 5W-20, then that is a good piece of physical evidence in favor of 5W-20. Not perfectly conclusive, of course, but stronger than most of what has been offered here so far. It is a good step on the way to making a STRONG inference rather than a weak one.
Wasn't that the original question?
This isn't going anywhere, for any of us.
And the fact that there have been no mass failures in the police fleet CVs using 5W-20 is NOT hearsay.... Either the fleets using 5W-20 failed en masse or they didn't. If they didn't, while they were using 5W-20, then that is a good piece of physical evidence in favor of 5W-20. Not perfectly conclusive, of course, but stronger than most of what has been offered here so far. It is a good step on the way to making a STRONG inference rather than a weak one.
That's not exactly what I meant.
I don't assume there would be failures with 5w-20.
My assumption is that the modern 5w-30 would provide a better margin of protection.
I never said or assumed to say that your engine will fail on the thinner oil.
It won't since there is not that big of a difference in viscosity.
Yet why should you sucrifice and make that protective buffer "thinner".
To get an extra 0.5 mpg, or subsidize your automaker's "Green" image ambitions?
An average customer coudn't care less about the oil grades.
We, the BITOGers are not of the same bunch.
The most of us come here to find the most effective solutions to protect our engnes the best.
Am I wrong?
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"The most of us come here to find the most effective solutions to protect our engnes the best.
Am I wrong?"
Not wrong about that at all. But if the evidence shows that the protection is just as good, what is the problem?
The epistemological conundrum here is that, so far, the evidence does NOT show that the protection is NOT as good, but the positive corollary still needs more evidence. This is further complicated by the problem that if a motor dies at 300k, having run 5W-20 its whole life, there will have been so many variables built into that life span that it will be highly unlikely that the oil could be pinpointed conclusively as the culprit. This of course holds as well if it runs that long with 5/10w-30/40. As I've already stated, Accord may yet be correct, but the evidence just isn't there yet, so we're essentially beating our heads, and each others' heads, against a wall.
Am I wrong?"
Not wrong about that at all. But if the evidence shows that the protection is just as good, what is the problem?
The epistemological conundrum here is that, so far, the evidence does NOT show that the protection is NOT as good, but the positive corollary still needs more evidence. This is further complicated by the problem that if a motor dies at 300k, having run 5W-20 its whole life, there will have been so many variables built into that life span that it will be highly unlikely that the oil could be pinpointed conclusively as the culprit. This of course holds as well if it runs that long with 5/10w-30/40. As I've already stated, Accord may yet be correct, but the evidence just isn't there yet, so we're essentially beating our heads, and each others' heads, against a wall.
You're assuming that the protection is just as good.
We don't have any empirical evidence.
Some here are trying to say that the good UOA's ARE the evidence.
They're not.
In order to collect that kind of the evidence we need to assemble a fleet of vehicle and run them in the controlled environment.
And since it's not feasible then we can only "speculate".
And post links to the articles of the industry insiders who are in a much better position to make educated guesses on the subject.
O, I've missed this one.quote:
Originally posted by 427Z06:
Not at all. But to present one man's dated opinion without any support data versus the volumes of data on the other side of the debate is laughable. And we've seen that same reference used at least a hundred times. At least find something current and new.quote:
Originally posted by Accord2005NJ:
So you "pick and chose" information?quote:
Originally posted by 427Z06:
Dated opinion?
July 2003?
Also, what kinda of volumes of data do you expect to be included?
A ton of unverifiable, randomly lifted raw data combined with unsubtstantiated claims will hardly prove anything.
If a July 2003 article is 'outdated' info on 5W-20, I guess that would make 5W-20 itself outdated as it is older.
It seems quite obvious to me that those pounding their chests here about the virtues of 5W-20 seem to own Hondas and Fords and other vehicles with 4 cylinder engines.
The only person I am aware of here that uses 5W-20 in a performance car is Rodbuckler in his Mustang. He swears it works better than 5W-20 and that his engine feels better. I have no idea how he can tell the difference between 5W-20 and 5W-30.
It is also becoming obvious to me that manufactures going to 5W-20 do it to get CAFE credits to offset the CAFE fines they must pay in order to make the vehicles the majority want which are generally bigger SUVs and trucks.
I like the advice most performance engine builders give. Many who build performance V-8 engines recommend 0W-30, 5W-30, or 10W-30. I read this numerous times on Mustang forums such as SVT Performance and StangNet.
It seems quite obvious to me that those pounding their chests here about the virtues of 5W-20 seem to own Hondas and Fords and other vehicles with 4 cylinder engines.
The only person I am aware of here that uses 5W-20 in a performance car is Rodbuckler in his Mustang. He swears it works better than 5W-20 and that his engine feels better. I have no idea how he can tell the difference between 5W-20 and 5W-30.
It is also becoming obvious to me that manufactures going to 5W-20 do it to get CAFE credits to offset the CAFE fines they must pay in order to make the vehicles the majority want which are generally bigger SUVs and trucks.
I like the advice most performance engine builders give. Many who build performance V-8 engines recommend 0W-30, 5W-30, or 10W-30. I read this numerous times on Mustang forums such as SVT Performance and StangNet.
When I am thinking about 5W-20 and 4 bangers, I strangely think of this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9GpuzfRIPY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9GpuzfRIPY
Huh? The writer of that opinion piece was commenting on oil that was spec-ed for some vehicles for about two years. In another post, someone was claiming we need 300K miles on a vehicle before we can trust manufacturer recommendations. Which is it folks?
On the contrary, it's the naysayers that are pounding their chests without evidence. In my vehicles that spec 5w20 for use, a V6 by the way, I use it. In the one's that don't, I don't use it. Let me remind you that Ford recommended 5w20 for it's modular V8s from it's reintroduction of the spec. Ford has built a lot of modular V8s.
Just because you aren't aware of them doesn't mean there aren't others.
Another old and faulty arguement. Did you just crawl out from under a rock?
That's funny. Discount one internet forum by referencing another.
Stop being lazy and whiny. All these points have been addressed in numerous threads many dozens of times. Use the search feature and start searching and reading.
Wow, this all sounds familiar. Maybe everyone all ready knows this, but data and/or facts are not valid arguing points against a belief. Data is great to influence what people think, but not what they believe, especially if they confuse what they believe with what they know. I think that this topic has been distilled to a religious argument.
Did I claim it was the best? I don't think I said anything to the effect that it was the best, but since that's what my owner's manual says to use, I see no compelling reason to use something different. I just read lots of anecdotes about "thicker is better". How much better? You don't know, and I don't either. No, 31,000 isn't much, but it's a start. When you can prove that it won't make it 250,000 miles or more, be sure to let us know exactly why. I'll be extremely disappointed if it only makes it 249,998 miles
I still can't believe people are debating this. If you use the search function, you'll find many articles that show the testing that has been done with 20wt oils. Some of the facts I'll list are from these articles (I'm not going to look them all up)
- Motorcraft's 5w-20 outperformed their own 5w-30
- Shell found the oil film to be thicker at the ring area when using a 5w-20
- Dodge tested all viscosities for the Hemi and chose a 5w-20.
- Europe/Asia are on the way to using 20wt oils. Some already do.
- Most 5w-30's that people have been usng for years and still getting 300k out of engines were running 5w-20's when you factor in the shearing that took place.
- CVX wrote an article about how the new additives are allowing lower viscosity oils without a sacrifice in wear.
- In NASCAR, a testing ground, many are running 0w-5 to qualify and 0w-30's the entire race.
- Steve Bergan, a GM engineer, said viscosity has little to do with engine wear. The design of the engine and set up along with dirt are more important.
- If you believe that the oil analysis posts on this website accurately show wear, then 5w-20's are every bit as good.
No such thing as a one size fits all viscosity. The right viscosity depends on the engine, driving conditions and HP. Amsoil is making a 5w-20 long drain oil. I can assure you that over a 15k mile drain interval it will most likely become a 5w-30 anyway.
- Motorcraft's 5w-20 outperformed their own 5w-30
- Shell found the oil film to be thicker at the ring area when using a 5w-20
- Dodge tested all viscosities for the Hemi and chose a 5w-20.
- Europe/Asia are on the way to using 20wt oils. Some already do.
- Most 5w-30's that people have been usng for years and still getting 300k out of engines were running 5w-20's when you factor in the shearing that took place.
- CVX wrote an article about how the new additives are allowing lower viscosity oils without a sacrifice in wear.
- In NASCAR, a testing ground, many are running 0w-5 to qualify and 0w-30's the entire race.
- Steve Bergan, a GM engineer, said viscosity has little to do with engine wear. The design of the engine and set up along with dirt are more important.
- If you believe that the oil analysis posts on this website accurately show wear, then 5w-20's are every bit as good.
No such thing as a one size fits all viscosity. The right viscosity depends on the engine, driving conditions and HP. Amsoil is making a 5w-20 long drain oil. I can assure you that over a 15k mile drain interval it will most likely become a 5w-30 anyway.
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