What is the best oil for your Honda VTEC engine? Check this out.
- Thread starter Accord2005NJ
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Thats what I use. 0-30 in winter and 10-30/40 in summer.
You have got to be kidding me. How often are you going rehash this stupid topic Accord? You've made it perfectly clear in the past that you dont like 5w-20 oils, so just use whatever you want and let it go.
Why dont they recommend 5w-20 in europe?
I'm just gonna point to the exact same thing i said in the other thread which covers this topic.. Which is on this same exact page.. But its a good thing you brought this topic up, because it hasn't been covered enough in the past
"I still think Drivebelt had an excellent write up as to why 5w-20 is not recommended outside NA much.
"These recommendations of different weight oils for the same engine in different parts of the world has to do with the different oil basestock supplies around the world. Grp I basestocks are still predominately used outside of North America (Canada/US) -- and even in Europe. There is comparatively very little Grp II supply of basestocks outside of NA.
A couple of new Asia-Pacific plants that produce GrpII/III’s (and in Europe) have come on stream in the last couple of years, but before that there was virtually no supply of Grp II’s in Asia or Europe. Even then, these Grp II plants can only supply a very small fraction of the base oils needed if areas like Asia wanted to switch from Grp I to II basestocks for their motor oils. To put this in perspective, in 2003 about 75% of the world Grp II supply was in NA, and we just have enough Grp II supplies to meet our demand for motor oils. Some independent producers were worried about the supply of Grp II’s to meet the new GF-4 spec’s, because Grp II’s would basically be required to meet the NOACK volatility requirements and Grp I would basically almost be shut out completely. For the rest of the world, they have to use mostly Grp I’s or synthetics -- no choice. In Japan (2003) 84.4% of the oil basestock supply was Grp I -- 7.4% Grp II.
There is simply no way to make a quality 5w-20 oil from a Grp I that is going to hold up very long in an engine. Without any supply of Grp II hydrocracked oils, the only way to make a good 5w-20 would be to use synthetics -- Grp III’s and up. But then, if a manufacturer spec’s 5w-20 outside NA, they would basically be forcing these people to use synthetics -- and the cost issue comes into play. The average motorist will balk at the cost of synthetics.
Ideally, one wants to use a thinner oil like a 5w-20 or 5w-30 over a 10w40 because of fuel mileage and likely better oil circulation, but the problem is that thinner basestocks don’t hold up as well a thicker ones -- particularly with regard to NOACK volatility, and I’d imagine somewhat with regards to thermal stability. The aromatics in a Grp I break down quickly and the oil losses it lubricity causing more wear. Thinner oils also generally show somewhat more wear. So using a Grp I thinner oil is going to be like a double whammy as far as wear is concerned. One can compensate this somewhat by using higher weight oils that don’t show as much wear and hold out better. If you ‘re using a Grp I oil, you need every edge you can get in better protection. Fuel economy and the relatively very small benefits of thinner oil (few %) are of a distant secondary concern. There also is the issue that in very warm or “tropical” climates like Indonesia and many parts of the world, lighter weight oils probably won’t make as much difference in fuel mileage as in cooler climates. And, if you’re already using much smaller more fuel efficient engines to begin with (rest of world outside US) then a few % gas mileage really doesn’t really hurt that much. Engine protection becomes a more important parameter with Grp I based oils.
The problem is also compounded by the fact that Grp I oils don’t flow at cold temperatures as well as Grp II’s, so to make a 5w-20/30, you have to use thinner basestocks with I’s than if you blended with Grp II’s -- making things even worse.
Were seeing OCI’s of 10,000 miles in a lot of vehicle’s these days, and half that -- 5K for severe service. I think a 5w-20 blended from Grp I oil would be severely stretched to make 5K or much over that. With a Grp II -- no problem. I like this quote that pretty well sums up the performance gap between Grp I/II’s …
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The inherent oxidation stability advantage that Group II stocks have for passing these tests is apparent in today’s engine oils. For example, Cummins and Chevron found that some commercially available engine oils consistently passed the MRV TP-1 after a 400-hour double-length Cummins M-11 test while others failed1 Subsequent analysis showed that the oils that passed were formulated with Group II. The oils that failed were formulated with Group I. A more recent study showed that Group I formulated oils stayed in grade only about a third as long as Group II (125 hours for Group I vs 400 hours for Group II) in heavy-duty engine oils formulated with the same non-optimized general offering package.
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Grp II basestocks, because they cost the same as Grp I’s, change the equation. Why not get the benefits of a thinner oil if it protects just as well or better and costs no more. I’d take a Grp II based 5w-30 (or even 5w-20) over any Grp I based oil -- by a country mile."
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=42;t=003782;p=4
Why dont they recommend 5w-20 in europe?
I'm just gonna point to the exact same thing i said in the other thread which covers this topic.. Which is on this same exact page.. But its a good thing you brought this topic up, because it hasn't been covered enough in the past
"I still think Drivebelt had an excellent write up as to why 5w-20 is not recommended outside NA much.
"These recommendations of different weight oils for the same engine in different parts of the world has to do with the different oil basestock supplies around the world. Grp I basestocks are still predominately used outside of North America (Canada/US) -- and even in Europe. There is comparatively very little Grp II supply of basestocks outside of NA.
A couple of new Asia-Pacific plants that produce GrpII/III’s (and in Europe) have come on stream in the last couple of years, but before that there was virtually no supply of Grp II’s in Asia or Europe. Even then, these Grp II plants can only supply a very small fraction of the base oils needed if areas like Asia wanted to switch from Grp I to II basestocks for their motor oils. To put this in perspective, in 2003 about 75% of the world Grp II supply was in NA, and we just have enough Grp II supplies to meet our demand for motor oils. Some independent producers were worried about the supply of Grp II’s to meet the new GF-4 spec’s, because Grp II’s would basically be required to meet the NOACK volatility requirements and Grp I would basically almost be shut out completely. For the rest of the world, they have to use mostly Grp I’s or synthetics -- no choice. In Japan (2003) 84.4% of the oil basestock supply was Grp I -- 7.4% Grp II.
There is simply no way to make a quality 5w-20 oil from a Grp I that is going to hold up very long in an engine. Without any supply of Grp II hydrocracked oils, the only way to make a good 5w-20 would be to use synthetics -- Grp III’s and up. But then, if a manufacturer spec’s 5w-20 outside NA, they would basically be forcing these people to use synthetics -- and the cost issue comes into play. The average motorist will balk at the cost of synthetics.
Ideally, one wants to use a thinner oil like a 5w-20 or 5w-30 over a 10w40 because of fuel mileage and likely better oil circulation, but the problem is that thinner basestocks don’t hold up as well a thicker ones -- particularly with regard to NOACK volatility, and I’d imagine somewhat with regards to thermal stability. The aromatics in a Grp I break down quickly and the oil losses it lubricity causing more wear. Thinner oils also generally show somewhat more wear. So using a Grp I thinner oil is going to be like a double whammy as far as wear is concerned. One can compensate this somewhat by using higher weight oils that don’t show as much wear and hold out better. If you ‘re using a Grp I oil, you need every edge you can get in better protection. Fuel economy and the relatively very small benefits of thinner oil (few %) are of a distant secondary concern. There also is the issue that in very warm or “tropical” climates like Indonesia and many parts of the world, lighter weight oils probably won’t make as much difference in fuel mileage as in cooler climates. And, if you’re already using much smaller more fuel efficient engines to begin with (rest of world outside US) then a few % gas mileage really doesn’t really hurt that much. Engine protection becomes a more important parameter with Grp I based oils.
The problem is also compounded by the fact that Grp I oils don’t flow at cold temperatures as well as Grp II’s, so to make a 5w-20/30, you have to use thinner basestocks with I’s than if you blended with Grp II’s -- making things even worse.
Were seeing OCI’s of 10,000 miles in a lot of vehicle’s these days, and half that -- 5K for severe service. I think a 5w-20 blended from Grp I oil would be severely stretched to make 5K or much over that. With a Grp II -- no problem. I like this quote that pretty well sums up the performance gap between Grp I/II’s …
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
chevron.pdf
The inherent oxidation stability advantage that Group II stocks have for passing these tests is apparent in today’s engine oils. For example, Cummins and Chevron found that some commercially available engine oils consistently passed the MRV TP-1 after a 400-hour double-length Cummins M-11 test while others failed1 Subsequent analysis showed that the oils that passed were formulated with Group II. The oils that failed were formulated with Group I. A more recent study showed that Group I formulated oils stayed in grade only about a third as long as Group II (125 hours for Group I vs 400 hours for Group II) in heavy-duty engine oils formulated with the same non-optimized general offering package.
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Grp II basestocks, because they cost the same as Grp I’s, change the equation. Why not get the benefits of a thinner oil if it protects just as well or better and costs no more. I’d take a Grp II based 5w-30 (or even 5w-20) over any Grp I based oil -- by a country mile."
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=42;t=003782;p=4
Agreed
My take on this is..... You can use the 5w20 recommended with relative confidence you engine will not self-destruct, and if you choose to use 5w30 or 10w30, that too can be used with equal confidence, although at a *very* slight decrease in gas mileage.
Seems like you can't go wrong either way.
Seems like you can't go wrong either way.
Check other manufacturers and you will get different recommendations depending on availability of this or that grade at given producer. In Europe yuo will hardly find somebody who decides to recommend 0W-20/5W-20 for Honda VTEC. Usually the offer is limited by 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-40 and 10W-40. So, consider Edge 0W-30 as the best suggestion from Castrol only.
ARE YOU POST POLICE???
Don't tell me what to post and where!!!!
I'm not gonna stop responding or posting in the threads related to the 5w20 oil grade discussion just because you don't like the topic!
You keep reposting the same old statement all over again like it is an ultimate truth.
I suggest you find a newer and more credible source, preferrably from an industry publication like this one.
Motor Oils - Fuel Economy vs. Wear
That's a 3 year old article of someone's opinion. Time has proven him wrong.
5 year old opinion from a guy with a website.
First of all, i'm not telling anyone what to post, or where. I'm asking why Accord feels the need to bring this topic up again when there are countless threads covering 5w-20.quote:
ARE YOU POST POLICE???
Don't tell me what to post and where!!!!
I'm not gonna stop responding or posting in the threads related to the 5w20 oil grade discussion just because you don't like the topic!
You keep reposting the same old statement all over again like it is an ultimate truth.
I suggest you find a newer and more credible source, preferrably from an industry publication like this one.
Motor Oils - Fuel Economy vs. Wear [/QB]
Second of all, you say i'm posting the same old statement again and again. I'm doing this because i feel it negates your argument. How can they spec 5w-20 in europe and asia when they dont have the means to produce a 5w-20 with a reasonable price tag? Also.. you have no right to criticize me for posting the same old statement, when you, accord, and all the other anti-5w20 people are constantly using the same argument time and time again. Which is that they dont spec 5w-20 in europe, YET.
What do you expect to cover in this thread, that has not yet been covered in the previous 5w-20 threads? Lets just let it rest, we will never see eye to eye on this subject. Why do you guys feel the need to be right? It seems like you will keep bringing this topic up until the people who feel confident using 5w-20 throw their arms up in the air, and just say youre right, its all about cafe. That aint gonna happen.
1. That there are different recommendations for Europe and Asia tells us nothing about which recommendation is better. That is the implicit assumption Accord appears to be making, and it is directly and simply contravened by numerous examples of VTECs running just fine for several years now on 5W-20 oils.
2. If it is true that most wear occurs at startup, then the argument that thinner oil=better protection carries some weight.
3. It would seem that the best way to decide would be to have a good oil pressure gauge installed, and make the decision based on pressure at given RPMs per the manufacturer specs. That is of course rather inconvenient for the average dude like me.
4. Hasn't anyone tried to get in touch with a Honda engineer about this? (Not some tech at a dealer, but a real engineer.)
5. What do Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, and other non-European makes recommend in Europe and Asia, versus what they recommend here? If the discrepancy is universal, then there is at least good circumstantial evidence for the argument from non-availability of 20wt. oils.
6.
2. If it is true that most wear occurs at startup, then the argument that thinner oil=better protection carries some weight.
3. It would seem that the best way to decide would be to have a good oil pressure gauge installed, and make the decision based on pressure at given RPMs per the manufacturer specs. That is of course rather inconvenient for the average dude like me.
4. Hasn't anyone tried to get in touch with a Honda engineer about this? (Not some tech at a dealer, but a real engineer.)
5. What do Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, and other non-European makes recommend in Europe and Asia, versus what they recommend here? If the discrepancy is universal, then there is at least good circumstantial evidence for the argument from non-availability of 20wt. oils.
6.
I found Accord2005NJ's link entertaining. Notice that the author is a "thinner is better" person. He attributes the better performance as being due to the switch from 50wt to 40wt.
"With Honda's "Engine Oil", the engine now seems much quieter and smoother at idle, with a clear feeling of "lightness" when asked to rev to high rpms (which is probably due to the lighter 40 weight as compared to Shell Helix Plus which has a weight rating of 50). "
"With Honda's "Engine Oil", the engine now seems much quieter and smoother at idle, with a clear feeling of "lightness" when asked to rev to high rpms (which is probably due to the lighter 40 weight as compared to Shell Helix Plus which has a weight rating of 50). "
Help me understand this. Are you saying that at some reference cold-start temperature, say, -25 degrees F., 5W-20 will flow and protect better than 5W-30?
No, but better than 10W-30/40.
The point was meant to be taken in tandem with #3, as well, rather than discretely.
The point was meant to be taken in tandem with #3, as well, rather than discretely.
sxg6 - Thanks for the info, as that clears things up for me. You can't specify 5-20 when none is available!
Well, what do we have here???
Fuchs TITAN GT1 SAE 0W-20
http://www.fuchs-oil.de/1542.html
and Fuchs Silkolene PRO R SAE 0W-20
http://www.fuchs-silkolene.com/scri...olene/scripts/mainframe.d4w?sid=26784215&mm=2
Fuchs TITAN GT1 SAE 0W-20
http://www.fuchs-oil.de/1542.html
and Fuchs Silkolene PRO R SAE 0W-20
http://www.fuchs-silkolene.com/scri...olene/scripts/mainframe.d4w?sid=26784215&mm=2
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