What is THE best 2 cycle oil?
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So as to clear up a possable confusion issue, My brother stopped by the shop and posted from here not changing his username before he did, therefore his post showed as mine, he is Ilikesynthetics, mine is hasbeen. sorry for the confusion.
NO two stroke racer worth his salt would run a 80:1 oil ratio. Engines make less power and are underprotected when using less oil.
[QUOTEWhat were the test criterior and how did it compare to your reference oil in each criterior? [/QUOTE]
Refferance oil was Mx2T. Test took place over months and insluded a variety of operating conditions. This engine was rebuilt prior to the test so all parts where clean or new. Parmeters that where examined included ring land deposit level, skirt deposit level on exhaust side, deposit level on piston crown, powervlave cleanliness, and cylinder cleanliness.
While not being a scientific test by any means it does give one a idea of the relative quality of a oil. FWIW operating conditions and patterns are the exact same for both tests.
blano
Have you done your test with Redline Kart oil?
Have you done your test with Redline Kart oil?
Sprint, No I have not. I will not use any Redlines products after their two cycle race oil tarnished the jets in my cr 250 mx bikes carb to the point of changing main jet dimension. The continually deny they have a problem and as such will never get any of my business.
Cujet has tested their oil and ran into the same problems, as well as increased ring wear.
Redline gets a big thumbs down IMO.
Cujet has tested their oil and ran into the same problems, as well as increased ring wear.
Redline gets a big thumbs down IMO.
blano, from your two stroke experience would you know how Redline would work in an oil injected engine ?
I have ran quit abit of two cycle racing oil through my old Polaris hill climb sled. It worked OK, but I did have corosion issue on the crank lobes. Redlines ester base stock isnt very stable in the presence of water. It also has issues with oxygenated fuel per redlines tech line(3 years).
Refferance oil was Mx2T. Test took place over months and insluded a variety of operating conditions. This engine was rebuilt prior to the test so all parts where clean or new. Parmeters that where examined included ring land deposit level, skirt deposit level on exhaust side, deposit level on piston crown, powervlave cleanliness, and cylinder cleanliness.
While not being a scientific test by any means it does give one a idea of the relative quality of a oil. FWIW operating conditions and patterns are the exact same for both tests. [/QUOTE]
The 80:1 I mentioned was with the 100:1 oil. Some are running it and their reasons are more to do with economics as running it at 50:1 puts it at almost the same price as the Dominator at 50:1. for 50:1 in a racing bike the Dominator oil is a much better oil. Running the 100:1 at 50:1 is about like running a 50:1 oil at 25:1.
You mentioned the criterior (seemed to be all deposit related) but didn't tell how well the Interceptor oil did in each of the categories. I noticed wear, smoke, power, and price weren't part of the criterior.
What was wrong with the intruder oil in your opinion for the application you used it in?
If you posted the outcome already let me know and I will go look it up in a past posting.
What ratio did you run the oil at or was it just run through a stock injection system?
Wulimaster,
On this subject of oil ratios, statements have been made in previous threads that running Amsoil 100:1 at heavier oil ratios such as 80:1 or below in air cooled applications will produce smoke & deposits.
Blano's response was "Then it can't be an ISO-EGD oil" and no one responded to this issue.
Amsoil 100:1 is formulated to meet ISO-EGD, JASO-FC specs per the Amsoil website.
The exhaust smoke level test, M 342-92, is an 8 hour test run at 10:1 mix ratio.
The exhaust blocking test, M 343-92, tests for a decrease in intake vacuum due to deposit buildup in the exhaust port. This test is run for 20-35 hrs at a 5:1 mix ratio.
Maybe I'm missing something, but if Amsoil 100:1 performs poorly below 80:1, how does it pass the exhaust smoke & blockage tests?
On this subject of oil ratios, statements have been made in previous threads that running Amsoil 100:1 at heavier oil ratios such as 80:1 or below in air cooled applications will produce smoke & deposits.
Blano's response was "Then it can't be an ISO-EGD oil" and no one responded to this issue.
Amsoil 100:1 is formulated to meet ISO-EGD, JASO-FC specs per the Amsoil website.
The exhaust smoke level test, M 342-92, is an 8 hour test run at 10:1 mix ratio.
The exhaust blocking test, M 343-92, tests for a decrease in intake vacuum due to deposit buildup in the exhaust port. This test is run for 20-35 hrs at a 5:1 mix ratio.
Maybe I'm missing something, but if Amsoil 100:1 performs poorly below 80:1, how does it pass the exhaust smoke & blockage tests?
I never miced the parts prior to installation because I knew I would not be doing another rebuild after the oils test. Besides the wear numbers of one engine is a scientific circle jerk as there are many factors that influeance wear that are not oil related.
Power is identical and would be with any oil used. Two stroke oils do not make more power counter to what amsoil says. Ratio has a bigger influance on power. As you increase the amount of oil the hp goes up. This was well documented by mac in a sae paper from the seventies.
As far as price goes. interceptor is HIGHLY over priced at $28+ per gallon. Mx2t is around22 per gallon, phillips injex pro is around 15 per gallon, and citgo sea n snow is around 12 a gallon.
[ March 31, 2004, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: blano ]
Maybe I am missing something as I don't see the validity of either of those test. Where do they equate in the real world? Was this just someones idea of taking a long term test at normal mix ratios and trying to shorten it with the logic that "A shorter test running an absurdly rich mix of oil which are usually run at 32:1 will simulate a longer run with any oil regardless of its designed mix ratio".
Sorry but both those tests are unscientific from my perspective. I wonder how many other clever tests are being performed which are equally unscientific.
A more valid set of tests would be to allow the manufacturer of the oils to set the mix ratio +- for a specific application and have the tests performed at that recommended ratio. This would include smoke, deposit, and wear.
Sorry but I have no respect for whomever came up with those two specific tests. Probably a commitee of managers with no input from engineers or anyone with a scientific background. Same thing happens at all corporations across the US where engineers submit their recommendations and the management puts their changes to it and it becomes FUBARed.
Disagree if you want to but don't come crying to me about 4-ball wear tests on oils if you can't see the similarities. I'll just claim you are being prejudice.
Actually, there is nothing to say that it can't. Just because it is handicapped by a test most likely set up for oils which perform well at 32:1 doesn't mean it can't pass those two tests. Remember that these are minimum specs and there are some really cheaply formulated oils that can pass them.
An oil formulated to be run at 100:1 would have to be more than 3 times the price of oils which run best at 32:1 for them to be considered more expensive.
There are really only 2 criterior to judge an oil by.
Total cost of using versus others. (wear of engine, cost of oil per gallon of mix, maintenance)
and
Getting maximum power out of an engine.
They are usually mutually exclusive.
I will give you a few real world test results.
When I worked for Mercury Marine race team in the early 1980's I was fully involved in a oil test.
We had unlimited engines to destroy.
We discovered rich oil ratio's to be the ONLY factor in output. Ratios near 8 to 1 were tried (if I remember correctly we could not get the engine to run on 4 to 1). More oil makes more power, right up to the point that the engine will not idle.
Using that experience as a background, I tested various oils in my two stroke powered stuff, especially a pair of racing SeaDoo's. I used gallons and gallons of Redline Racing oil and continued to have problems. After 30 years of 2 stroke experience I finally found an oil that did make a difference. It reduced the engine life due to corrosion and overall poor protection.
By the way I have used most brands of quality 2 stroke oils.
My Husqvarna 360WXC dirt bike got the leftover Redline Racing oil along with my other toys. Well guess what? The failures started occurring in the Husky (and others) too. I then started to measure the time between ring jobs. Then between con rod big end failures. Too bad I did not figure it all out right away, I still believed that I was having bad luck. Redline Racing oil was responsible for the worn and corroded parts. Even the power valves wore out!
So I Switched to MX2t and the problems ended. And some other age old (not Redline oil) problems went away too. It seems that the MX2t is truly a modern oil with respectable performance in every aspect of protection. That is something that cannot be said about so many of the wonder oils available.
Yeah Motul 800 protects well at the expense of fouled plugs, spooge and carbon.
Quality TCW-III oils leave everything clean and worn out in high stress applications.
Klotz R50 builds up major carbon and sticks the rings so hard they cannot be removed from the piston.
So does Golden Spectro, all Dino oils and Yamalube.
About the only oil I have used with anywhere near similar results to MX2t is Castrol TT-S. And the jury is still out on that one.
Chris
When I worked for Mercury Marine race team in the early 1980's I was fully involved in a oil test.
We had unlimited engines to destroy.
We discovered rich oil ratio's to be the ONLY factor in output. Ratios near 8 to 1 were tried (if I remember correctly we could not get the engine to run on 4 to 1). More oil makes more power, right up to the point that the engine will not idle.
Using that experience as a background, I tested various oils in my two stroke powered stuff, especially a pair of racing SeaDoo's. I used gallons and gallons of Redline Racing oil and continued to have problems. After 30 years of 2 stroke experience I finally found an oil that did make a difference. It reduced the engine life due to corrosion and overall poor protection.
By the way I have used most brands of quality 2 stroke oils.
My Husqvarna 360WXC dirt bike got the leftover Redline Racing oil along with my other toys. Well guess what? The failures started occurring in the Husky (and others) too. I then started to measure the time between ring jobs. Then between con rod big end failures. Too bad I did not figure it all out right away, I still believed that I was having bad luck. Redline Racing oil was responsible for the worn and corroded parts. Even the power valves wore out!
So I Switched to MX2t and the problems ended. And some other age old (not Redline oil) problems went away too. It seems that the MX2t is truly a modern oil with respectable performance in every aspect of protection. That is something that cannot be said about so many of the wonder oils available.
Yeah Motul 800 protects well at the expense of fouled plugs, spooge and carbon.
Quality TCW-III oils leave everything clean and worn out in high stress applications.
Klotz R50 builds up major carbon and sticks the rings so hard they cannot be removed from the piston.
So does Golden Spectro, all Dino oils and Yamalube.
About the only oil I have used with anywhere near similar results to MX2t is Castrol TT-S. And the jury is still out on that one.
Chris
And i've got a gallon of Redline Kart oil to get through. Cost me a small fortune so reluctant to ditch it. My Yamaha KT100S will get a rebuild soon, I'll report on what my engine builder sees re wear/corrosion etc...s
I'm surprised no one mentioned any Belray products. I've been using Belray MC-1 mixed between 44 and 48 to 1 for years with good luck. It's a bit smoky, but I've seen no wear or corrosion problems with it...
The price was too high for the level of deposit control it exhibited.
Oil injection set to the factory spec.
You couldnt be more wrong. very few oils will ACTUALLY pass the isoegd test. No mineral oils will pass and only the best mineral/ synthetic blends will make the grade. Certain sections of the test are ran at overly rich ratios, but this isnt to handicap Amsoil. Its just to make the test more stringent. A good oil will not smoke a bit at 16:1. I know as I have ran this ratio in certain apps.
FWIW The torque test portion of the egd standard is ran at a 100:1 ratio.
If you want to run your engine at 100:1. Most people who know what there doing will not.
Its been my expiereance the Bel Ray oils have always been smoky and deposit forming. I havent tested their Newest H1R formula though.
[ April 01, 2004, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: blano ]
I've been running the Amsoil pre-mix @ 100:1 for fifteen years in my tiller, trimmer and chainsaws and it works perfectly. It is infinitely better than the API, "TC" rated, department store two stroke oils that most homeowners use in OPE.
The new Sabre professional is an entirely different ester blend - the properties aren't even close to the old 100:1:
ATC, 100:1
FP, +507F
PP, -17F
Sabre Professional:
FP, +214F
PP, -33F
vis @ 100C, approx 13.5 Cst
I haven't had the chance to test the new premix yet, but I expect it to burn cleaner at richer rations. The recommended mix ratio is 100:1 for homeowner use and 80:1 for commercial use in trimmers, chainsaws,etc. The high molecular weight esters provide excellent scuffing protection at lean ratios.
The only time you'd ever want to run this stuff at 50:1 is for off-shore powerboat racing, where the prop is jumping out of the water and you are over-revving the engines all the time.
Tooslick
The new Sabre professional is an entirely different ester blend - the properties aren't even close to the old 100:1:
ATC, 100:1
FP, +507F
PP, -17F
Sabre Professional:
FP, +214F
PP, -33F
vis @ 100C, approx 13.5 Cst
I haven't had the chance to test the new premix yet, but I expect it to burn cleaner at richer rations. The recommended mix ratio is 100:1 for homeowner use and 80:1 for commercial use in trimmers, chainsaws,etc. The high molecular weight esters provide excellent scuffing protection at lean ratios.
The only time you'd ever want to run this stuff at 50:1 is for off-shore powerboat racing, where the prop is jumping out of the water and you are over-revving the engines all the time.
Tooslick
Tooslick, I have to laugh about this as we had a recent thread on this forum inquiring about Walmart 2 cycle oil & it died after 2 posts.
The American consumer is perfectly willing to accept basic performance from a Walmart since it is "cheap". Yet mention Amsoil & 100:1 & the thread is guaranteed for 2 pages!
I just returned to BITOG from an Amsoil thread on another forum. One of the posts states that Amsoil must be run at 50:1 when mixed with MBTE gasoline. Another asks, "Is this oil that Amway stuff"? LOL!
I have a bottle of the Saber mix at hand. The label states, "For severe duty applications such as racing or commercial equipment, richer mix ratios of 50:1 to 80:1 are recommended."
I'm planning on an initial trial in a chainsaw at 2 oz/gal which is a 65:1 mix ratio. I will pull the muffler & inspect the cylinder/rings and check the plug (new) for an indication of deposits. Any comments?
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