I ran 0-w40 M1 in my 02 Jetta 1.8T for 85k with zero problems. The car was running over twice the stock boost levels with many modifications and some light track duty.
what is good VW 502 approved OIL??
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VW does not require you to use their oil, only oil that meets their specs.
VW is not unique in this regard, and the same applies to most of the fluids in many types of cars.
After reading through RI_RS4's thread about the Super-Secret 5w-40 you get the impression that 502.00 spec oils are nothing special. A 0w-40 if pressed might suffer from a bit more shear than a 5w-40. RI_RS4 came up with an Audi RS4 that shreds 502.00 oil in a thousand miles or so. His thread is a must read for anyone driving a car that spec’s 502.00 oil. He gives you the benefit of a lot of time, work and expense and a thought process born of an engineering education and background. If you stick with the spec there may be little to choose between the oils but if you follow his lead and use RLI’s 5w-40 you have a problem. RLI is a better oil, but not one of the chosen and approved. You also have to have it shipped and plan ahead. RLI is not in stock at your local parts store. Let us know what you decide to do.
Lonnie, thanks for the plug! We try.
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I must comment. Looking at the offcial Audi AG oil bulletin (not any AoA paper), the Audi RS4 requires:
VW 504 or VW 503.01 (if equipped for LongLife Service)
or
VW 504, VW 503.01, VW 505.01 (if not equipped for LongLife Service)
In both cases VW 504 oils are listed as the preferred spec. VW 502 is not being listed by Audi as the ideal spec for the RS4. The officially by Audi endorsed oil for the RS4 is Castrol SLX LongLife III.
RI_RS4's experience with the his RS4 does not surprise me, given the particulars of this car's power plant. However, to draw the conclusion that this makes VW 502 oils less than ideal in all the other applications that call for this spec is a faulty conclusion.
That's not to say RI_RS4's special sauce isn't better than any other oil, but I fail to see how this is relevant to "anyone driving a car that spec’s [sic] 502.00 oil."
Mori, you are correct about the European requirements for the RS4. In the US the 502 std is recommended. European owners are having similar problems with the 504 oils. Unfortunately, few of them have come forth and had their oil analyzed, but the symptoms are the same. High consumption, oil burn at startup, fuel smell in oil ... etc. Fortunately, for our European brothers, the FSI stratified mode (lean burn) is enabled, thus reducing fuel influx into the oil.
Actually, the work I've done with oil in the RS4 has implications for all new Audi and VW engines with Alusil blocks and direct injection.
Actually, the work I've done with oil in the RS4 has implications for all new Audi and VW engines with Alusil blocks and direct injection.
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My criticism was aimed at Lonnie's conclusion.
I know that Audi specs VW 502 for your engine. Do you know why VW 502 is recommended over VW 504 in the not-fully-enabled US import version? Does VW 502 oil handle fuel dilution better than VW 504 oil?
In any case, I'm glad I have a low-tech 12v engine without fancy injection. All that high-tech junk really turns me off.
I know that Audi specs VW 502 for your engine. Do you know why VW 502 is recommended over VW 504 in the not-fully-enabled US import version? Does VW 502 oil handle fuel dilution better than VW 504 oil?
In any case, I'm glad I have a low-tech 12v engine without fancy injection. All that high-tech junk really turns me off.
Mori, I think it's a matter of supply. The 504 oils are low SAPS, which is why they are required in Europe, since the regulations are more stringent. Most of those oils have just not made it to the US yet. However, those that have been seen by Terry Dyson outside of this country, are performing no better than 502 oils.
It was clear to me, in my contacts with Audi, that they really have not considered fuel dilution and it's effect on oil. They believe they have designed their engines to survive, which may be why they seem so complacent. They are not going to admit anything. However, behind the scenes, my contacts indicate they are busy.
Yes, low tech engine are nice! But 420 HP is even nicer!
It was clear to me, in my contacts with Audi, that they really have not considered fuel dilution and it's effect on oil. They believe they have designed their engines to survive, which may be why they seem so complacent. They are not going to admit anything. However, behind the scenes, my contacts indicate they are busy.
Yes, low tech engine are nice! But 420 HP is even nicer!
I stand by what I posted. The 502.00 spec is no guarantee that the oil is any better than many similar viscosity oils without that cert. The RS4 engine is a great engine, much better to maintain well than to ever have to take it appart. This RLI oil is prooving to be something special, certainly a step in the right direction, a step away from 502 oils. If I owned one of these Audi oil shreaders I'd use RLI and keep good records. The RS4 is a great driver and a wonderful way to go to work. I wonder if RI_RS4 thinks his ride is faster than my Civic wagon? I now runs on RLI, too.
Mori, I have brought up the same point to RS4 regarding VW specs in the other thread. Most people that are into VW/ Audi know that the 502 00 spec is a bit out of date, considering the Europeans have gone to the ones you listed.
Apparently the other, newer specs are having the same problems.
Lonnie, I do understand your intentions, but the 502 00 (even better if you can find some 503 01) oils have done just great up till the introduction of the TFSI engines.
Look at the used oil analysis with the 1.8T. Fuel dilution might be a problem, but wear has been fairly low and viscosity has not been terrible (or hasnt been affected at all in the case of GC).
Flashpoint is a different story.
I have plenty of Mobil 1 0w-40 and will be doing some used oil analysis and plan on doing an UOA with the RLI, but only when I run out of the Mobil stash.
I would certainly be interested if the RLI would be a cure for the fuel dilution and how my wear numbers would be affected.
There has not been any consistency with my used oil analysis so I dont even know what is going. Next one is going to Terry to see what he has to say.
Apparently the other, newer specs are having the same problems.
Lonnie, I do understand your intentions, but the 502 00 (even better if you can find some 503 01) oils have done just great up till the introduction of the TFSI engines.
Look at the used oil analysis with the 1.8T. Fuel dilution might be a problem, but wear has been fairly low and viscosity has not been terrible (or hasnt been affected at all in the case of GC).
Flashpoint is a different story.
I have plenty of Mobil 1 0w-40 and will be doing some used oil analysis and plan on doing an UOA with the RLI, but only when I run out of the Mobil stash.
I would certainly be interested if the RLI would be a cure for the fuel dilution and how my wear numbers would be affected.
There has not been any consistency with my used oil analysis so I dont even know what is going. Next one is going to Terry to see what he has to say.
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Apparently most people who are into VW/Audi are misinformed. While the VW 502 spec has been around for a decade or so it is not outdated but it is regularly updated, which you would know if you were to bother looking at the spec sheets. For example, all VW 505.01 oils also must now also meet VW 502.
The suggestion that "the Europeans have gone to" VW 504 oils is partially true, but only for the latest engines. I should know, since I am one of "the Europeans" and also since I recently had time to chat with the folks at my old dealership in Germany. VW 502 oil is still used as ever in the type application that I mentioned above.
VW 502 is the proper spec for basically all VW and Audi engines that have normally aspirated engines that are operated on a normal or slightly extended drain interval and that do not have super-advanced emissions control systems.
The newer VW 504 spec may not be ideal for older VW engine designs, since it is designed with emphasis on low emissions and environmental soundness for which the newer (for example FSI) engines are designed. The VW 504 spec is also an attempt to consolidate most variety VW oil specs into one single spec. Don't forget that all VW 504 oils are also VW 507 oils (for diesel engines). I think it's a poor decision by VW to try to accommodate the unsavvy populace and disinterested dealerships with a one-oil-fits all. Apparently VW 504 oils are not the bee's knees, because some engines still require VW 505.01 oil.
Mori, I have to ask this just because I'm trying to understand the whole VW specification structure, but how can a lower number designation spec actually be a better brew than a higher number spec? Or do they just pick at random which spec they are going to "improve" upon at the time?
Maybe I'm just so used to running in order with things, so that I'm missing the whole gist of it anyway, but am curious nonetheless...
Maybe I'm just so used to running in order with things, so that I'm missing the whole gist of it anyway, but am curious nonetheless...
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The numerical value of the VW oil spec numbers does not correlate to any kind of quality or performance level. The numbers denote the order in which the oil specs appear:
VW oils specs for gas engines begin with 500, 501, 502, 503 or 504 in order from oldest to latest.
VW oil specs for diesel engines start with 505, 506 or 507 , again from oldest to latest. Is that so hard to comprehend?
For the 9,000th time I will post this:
Way back in the '80s there were three VW oil specs
- VW 501.01: (multigrade oil -- minimum quality spec)
- VW 500.00: friction-modified synthetic oil
- VW 505.00: oil for diesel engines
- VW 500.00 was eventually superseded by VW 502.00
VW tinkered with lower HTHS oils for a while and that's why they came out with:
- VW 503.00 for gas engines with LongLife Service -- no new VW or Audi engine calls for this spec anymore
- VW 506.00 for diesel engines with Long Life Service
Because VW wanted to offer LongLife Service for gas engines that require normal HTHS oil, they came out with VW 503.01.
VW developed the PD jet nozzle diesel engine, which had different requirements, hence VW 505.01 was introduced.
VW also needed an oil for PD diesel engines with LongLife Service, so they came out with VW 506.01.
Environmental reasons and technical advances in emissions control systems required mid-SAPS oil: Hence the VW 504 (gas engines) and VW 507 (diesel engines) specs were introduced. So far all VW 504 oils are also VW 507 oils. It's a one-spec-for-all with a few exceptions oil spec.
VW 504/507 oils "may" be used in engines calling for VW 502. In the case of engines without roller cams I would stick with a VW 502 oil, VW 503.01 or VW 505.01 spec oil.
I predict that within the next few years there will be only three VW oil specs:
- VW 504/507 (combined spec)
- VW 505.01 or VW 502
PS: Retired VW oil specs:
- VW 501.01
- VW 500.00
- VW 503.00
VW oils specs for gas engines begin with 500, 501, 502, 503 or 504 in order from oldest to latest.
VW oil specs for diesel engines start with 505, 506 or 507 , again from oldest to latest. Is that so hard to comprehend?
For the 9,000th time I will post this:
Way back in the '80s there were three VW oil specs
- VW 501.01: (multigrade oil -- minimum quality spec)
- VW 500.00: friction-modified synthetic oil
- VW 505.00: oil for diesel engines
- VW 500.00 was eventually superseded by VW 502.00
VW tinkered with lower HTHS oils for a while and that's why they came out with:
- VW 503.00 for gas engines with LongLife Service -- no new VW or Audi engine calls for this spec anymore
- VW 506.00 for diesel engines with Long Life Service
Because VW wanted to offer LongLife Service for gas engines that require normal HTHS oil, they came out with VW 503.01.
VW developed the PD jet nozzle diesel engine, which had different requirements, hence VW 505.01 was introduced.
VW also needed an oil for PD diesel engines with LongLife Service, so they came out with VW 506.01.
Environmental reasons and technical advances in emissions control systems required mid-SAPS oil: Hence the VW 504 (gas engines) and VW 507 (diesel engines) specs were introduced. So far all VW 504 oils are also VW 507 oils. It's a one-spec-for-all with a few exceptions oil spec.
VW 504/507 oils "may" be used in engines calling for VW 502. In the case of engines without roller cams I would stick with a VW 502 oil, VW 503.01 or VW 505.01 spec oil.
I predict that within the next few years there will be only three VW oil specs:
- VW 504/507 (combined spec)
- VW 505.01 or VW 502
PS: Retired VW oil specs:
- VW 501.01
- VW 500.00
- VW 503.00
I don't know what the spec numbering logic is, but just remember that the ordering of the numbers has no bearing on the spec or how "good" the spec'd oil is.
Sorry Mori, I just started keeping up with the European forum, so I didn't realize that, plus like a dumb dumb, I didn't put that designation together for the numbers.
Thanks for the explaination though!
Thanks for the explaination though!
Mori, what has happened is that all of the new VW/AUdi engines have gone to chain driven camshafts and aluminum block and cylinder walls. The older engine were iron blocks or iron sleeved with timing belts. The older engines held up quite well, and the oil specs were specifically developed for those types of engines. The newer engines are having problems specifically with iron wear and fuel dilution, due to the cam chains and the newer low tension rings being used. Audi's have issues with cam chains stretching and tensioners rattling, which is a consequence of lubrication issues. FSI and TFSI engines are having problems with valve deposit formation, since fuel (with detergents) is no longer deposited on the back side of the valves, and also (an assumption on my part) because of oil deposit formation, due to fuel dilution induced breakdown.
IMO, the 502 spec, and all VW/Audi specs are perfectly fine for older engines with belt driven camshafts and iron cylinders. For modern VW/Audi engines, the oils have not caught up.
IMO, the 502 spec, and all VW/Audi specs are perfectly fine for older engines with belt driven camshafts and iron cylinders. For modern VW/Audi engines, the oils have not caught up.
You really do need a 502 oil if it is called for in the owners manual, to keep the warranty. And VW started using synthetic oil as factory fill in the mid 1990's. VW has been horribly picky about sludge issues in the 1.8t. If you did not run a 502 approved oil, VWOA will probaly deny the sludge claim. Stick with what oils are on the list, and everything will be fine.
StoicDude "I would certainly be interested if the RLI would be a cure for the fuel dilution and how my wear numbers would be affected."
Have you read through the Super-Secret 5w-40 thread? I'd call RLI a solution for fuel dilution based on info in that thread.
Have you read through the Super-Secret 5w-40 thread? I'd call RLI a solution for fuel dilution based on info in that thread.
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It's unclear to me what your point is besides that you have a car with an engine for which finding an oil that meets your needs requires a Herculean task.
We do agree on VW 502 being just fine for the engines for which it is specified. Looking at the Audi oil bulletin, VW 502 is not the primary choice, but a suitable oil spec, as are VW 503.01 and VW 505.01. If none of those works to you satisfaction then that's too bad. The high performance of your engine may well come at a price, one which I certainly would not be willing to pay, at least not if the price in question is compromised engine longevity.
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Call it what it is -- a BandAid.
If FSI results in fuel dilution, then the problem is the FSI design and that's what needs fixing. VW and Audi have for many years prematurely pushed new technology, which is why I'd never buy any of their latest design, but I'd wait at least 3 years until after introduction.
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