I have tried to look at the MSDS for various synthetic oils and it not easy to determine. I sent at email to Amsoil tech support asking and they said its proprietary. Thats disappointing. I still like Amsoil products don't get me wrong.
what GROUP an oil is.
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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Can't tell much from an MSDS, unfortunately.
Occasionally companies voluntarily say what their oils are made of (e.g. SOPUS saying that various Pennzoil and Shell oils are group III), but that's rare.
Penzoil Ultra is supposed to meet GL-5 and its still a Group III?
Can't tell much from an MSDS, unfortunately.
Occasionally companies voluntarily say what their oils are made of (e.g. SOPUS saying that various Pennzoil and Shell oils are group III), but that's rare.
Penzoil Ultra is supposed to meet GL-5 and its still a Group III?
Yes it is. Nothing wrong with Group III base stocks.
Correction, that should state GF-5, GL-5 is a gear oil spec.
Also, Group II base stocks will also be made in to GF-5 rated oils.
Correction, that should state GF-5, GL-5 is a gear oil spec.
Also, Group II base stocks will also be made in to GF-5 rated oils.
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If you want an honest company, go to www.schaefferoil.com and click on MSDS/TD and look at any oil they have. On the MSDS, most formulations they have will list the type of oil and what percent range it is.
Originally Posted By: Donald
I have tried to look at the MSDS for various synthetic oils and it not easy to determine.
Because for the most part it does not matter. Focus on performance, not necessarily on how it's achieved.
I have tried to look at the MSDS for various synthetic oils and it not easy to determine.
Because for the most part it does not matter. Focus on performance, not necessarily on how it's achieved.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Donald
I have tried to look at the MSDS for various synthetic oils and it not easy to determine.
Because for the most part it does not matter. Focus on performance, not necessarily on how it's achieved.
If that were even close to being reality, we would all be using group 1 oils........it matters quite a bit, even Exxon/Mobil admits as much.
Originally Posted By: Donald
I have tried to look at the MSDS for various synthetic oils and it not easy to determine.
Because for the most part it does not matter. Focus on performance, not necessarily on how it's achieved.
If that were even close to being reality, we would all be using group 1 oils........it matters quite a bit, even Exxon/Mobil admits as much.
Originally Posted By: qship1996
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Donald
I have tried to look at the MSDS for various synthetic oils and it not easy to determine.
Because for the most part it does not matter. Focus on performance, not necessarily on how it's achieved.
If that were even close to being reality, we would all be using group 1 oils........it matters quite a bit, even Exxon/Mobil admits as much.
I hope you aren't trying to imply that the difference between Group III and Group IV is as much as Group I and Group II
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Donald
I have tried to look at the MSDS for various synthetic oils and it not easy to determine.
Because for the most part it does not matter. Focus on performance, not necessarily on how it's achieved.
If that were even close to being reality, we would all be using group 1 oils........it matters quite a bit, even Exxon/Mobil admits as much.
I hope you aren't trying to imply that the difference between Group III and Group IV is as much as Group I and Group II
well group 1,2,and 3 are all different levels of refined mineral oil, while group 4 and 5 are chemically composed.....you make your own conclusions
Here is Exxon/Mobils own take on the subject.
QUOTE
Motor oils typically are 75-85% basestock with the balance being additives. That’s why basestock quality is such a critical contributor to the performance of the final blended product. You’ll find out more about additives below.
There Are Four Different Types of Motor Oil Base Stocks
We know that basestock composition has a significant effect on the overall performance of motor oil. There are four different types of base stock used in the motor oil market today.
Group 1 - Conventional - Mineral oil derived from crude oil
Group 2 - Hydroprocessed - Highly refined mineral oil
Group 3 – Severe hydroprocessed - Ultra refined mineral oil
Group 4 – Full synthetics (chemically derived) - Chemically built Polyalphaolefins (PAO).
As it infers Groups 1 – 3 basestocks are derived from crude oil pumped from the ground whereas Group 4 basestocks are chemically derived, most often from ethylene gas, and contain none of the contaminants present in mineral oils. Just as distilled water is pure water derived from gas so Group 4 basestocks are pure oils derived from gas.
END QUOTE
Hope you find the above quote from Mobil educational and enlightning.
Here is Exxon/Mobils own take on the subject.
QUOTE
Motor oils typically are 75-85% basestock with the balance being additives. That’s why basestock quality is such a critical contributor to the performance of the final blended product. You’ll find out more about additives below.
There Are Four Different Types of Motor Oil Base Stocks
We know that basestock composition has a significant effect on the overall performance of motor oil. There are four different types of base stock used in the motor oil market today.
Group 1 - Conventional - Mineral oil derived from crude oil
Group 2 - Hydroprocessed - Highly refined mineral oil
Group 3 – Severe hydroprocessed - Ultra refined mineral oil
Group 4 – Full synthetics (chemically derived) - Chemically built Polyalphaolefins (PAO).
As it infers Groups 1 – 3 basestocks are derived from crude oil pumped from the ground whereas Group 4 basestocks are chemically derived, most often from ethylene gas, and contain none of the contaminants present in mineral oils. Just as distilled water is pure water derived from gas so Group 4 basestocks are pure oils derived from gas.
END QUOTE
Hope you find the above quote from Mobil educational and enlightning.
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The most frustrating aspect of the Group III and Group IV debate is cost for me. Group III oils are cheaper to produce yet a couple like Castrol Syntec and PU are priced higher than oils which contain Group IV.
M1 contains Group IV but Syntec is made from Group III and costs more....
Edge and M1EP contains Group IV but PU is made from Group III and costs more.
If companies can get similar performance by using cheaper base oils they should reduce the price of the product. Just my
M1 contains Group IV but Syntec is made from Group III and costs more....
Edge and M1EP contains Group IV but PU is made from Group III and costs more.
If companies can get similar performance by using cheaper base oils they should reduce the price of the product. Just my
Why? As you can see, they got even many of us here fooled, not to mention the average consumer who sees "synthetic" and all the other marketing buzzwords on the bottles and in the advertisements and has no clue as to what they are really purchasing.
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Originally Posted By: qship1996
If that were even close to being reality, we would all be using group 1 oils........it matters quite a bit, even Exxon/Mobil admits as much.
If a Group 1 oil can deliver the same performance as Group 4, then I wouldn't care what it's made of. Look at products such as RLI - their performance exceeds that of many Group IV/V oils, yet it's made of some veggie oil.
But my comment was more directed at differences between Group III/III+ and Group IV. Having Group IV content is no guarantee of a superior oil these days. Granted, we are each entitled to our own view on this subject, and I accept that.
If that were even close to being reality, we would all be using group 1 oils........it matters quite a bit, even Exxon/Mobil admits as much.
If a Group 1 oil can deliver the same performance as Group 4, then I wouldn't care what it's made of. Look at products such as RLI - their performance exceeds that of many Group IV/V oils, yet it's made of some veggie oil.
But my comment was more directed at differences between Group III/III+ and Group IV. Having Group IV content is no guarantee of a superior oil these days. Granted, we are each entitled to our own view on this subject, and I accept that.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: qship1996
If that were even close to being reality, we would all be using group 1 oils........it matters quite a bit, even Exxon/Mobil admits as much.
If a Group 1 oil can deliver the same performance as Group 4, then I wouldn't care what it's made of. Look at products such as RLI - their performance exceeds that of many Group IV/V oils, yet it's made of some veggie oil.
But my comment was more directed at differences between Group III/III+ and Group IV. Having Group IV content is no guarantee of a superior oil these days. Granted, we are each entitled to our own view on this subject, and I accept that.
Could you elaborate. I was not aware two different types of Group III existed.
Originally Posted By: qship1996
If that were even close to being reality, we would all be using group 1 oils........it matters quite a bit, even Exxon/Mobil admits as much.
If a Group 1 oil can deliver the same performance as Group 4, then I wouldn't care what it's made of. Look at products such as RLI - their performance exceeds that of many Group IV/V oils, yet it's made of some veggie oil.
But my comment was more directed at differences between Group III/III+ and Group IV. Having Group IV content is no guarantee of a superior oil these days. Granted, we are each entitled to our own view on this subject, and I accept that.
Could you elaborate. I was not aware two different types of Group III existed.
Originally Posted By: rewote500
If companies can get similar performance by using cheaper base oils they should reduce the price of the product. Just my :2cents
The cost to produce a merchandise has little to do with how much consumers pay. The companies charge what they think consumers will pay, regardless how much more or less it costs them.
If you look back some years ago, the cost to manufacture a VHS tape is higher than a DVD but we pay more for DVD because it's higher quality. Similar for cassette tape and CD, we paid more for CD but the cost to make cassette tape is higher.
If companies can get similar performance by using cheaper base oils they should reduce the price of the product. Just my :2cents
The cost to produce a merchandise has little to do with how much consumers pay. The companies charge what they think consumers will pay, regardless how much more or less it costs them.
If you look back some years ago, the cost to manufacture a VHS tape is higher than a DVD but we pay more for DVD because it's higher quality. Similar for cassette tape and CD, we paid more for CD but the cost to make cassette tape is higher.
Originally Posted By: qship1996
well group 1,2,and 3 are all different levels of refined mineral oil, while group 4 and 5 are chemically composed.....you make your own conclusions
Cars, paper clips, and rebar are all made of metal. Big Macs, filet mignons, and dog food are all made of meat. Cowpox, mushrooms, and human beings all come from DNA.
You make your own conclusions.
well group 1,2,and 3 are all different levels of refined mineral oil, while group 4 and 5 are chemically composed.....you make your own conclusions
Cars, paper clips, and rebar are all made of metal. Big Macs, filet mignons, and dog food are all made of meat. Cowpox, mushrooms, and human beings all come from DNA.
You make your own conclusions.
Originally Posted By: qship1996
well group 1,2,and 3 are all different levels of refined mineral oil, while group 4 and 5 are chemically composed.....you make your own conclusions
Here is Exxon/Mobils own take on the subject.
QUOTE
Motor oils typically are 75-85% basestock with the balance being additives. That’s why basestock quality is such a critical contributor to the performance of the final blended product. You’ll find out more about additives below.
There Are Four Different Types of Motor Oil Base Stocks
We know that basestock composition has a significant effect on the overall performance of motor oil. There are four different types of base stock used in the motor oil market today.
Group 1 - Conventional - Mineral oil derived from crude oil
Group 2 - Hydroprocessed - Highly refined mineral oil
Group 3 – Severe hydroprocessed - Ultra refined mineral oil
Group 4 – Full synthetics (chemically derived) - Chemically built Polyalphaolefins (PAO).
As it infers Groups 1 – 3 basestocks are derived from crude oil pumped from the ground whereas Group 4 basestocks are chemically derived, most often from ethylene gas, and contain none of the contaminants present in mineral oils. Just as distilled water is pure water derived from gas so Group 4 basestocks are pure oils derived from gas.
END QUOTE
Hope you find the above quote from Mobil educational and enlightning.
I see a lot of inferring that Group IVs are superior without actually saying it. The reason they don't say it outright is because it's not true.
The Group III vs. Group IV arguments are ridiculous.
Group IV oils are usually made from things that did not start as oil. Group III oils are made from things that started as oil. Does it matter?
Yes, Group III is cheaper to make but the process to make Group III is much newer than the process to make Group IV.
Has anyone been able to prove that the best Group III oils are inferior to the worst Group IV oils? If Group IV was that superior then no Group III oil should be able to stand up to any Group IV oil. As it stands, Pennzoil Platinum and Ultra are Group III oils that many on this board consider superior to the competition that contains Group IV.
Can this topic finally die?
well group 1,2,and 3 are all different levels of refined mineral oil, while group 4 and 5 are chemically composed.....you make your own conclusions
Here is Exxon/Mobils own take on the subject.
QUOTE
Motor oils typically are 75-85% basestock with the balance being additives. That’s why basestock quality is such a critical contributor to the performance of the final blended product. You’ll find out more about additives below.
There Are Four Different Types of Motor Oil Base Stocks
We know that basestock composition has a significant effect on the overall performance of motor oil. There are four different types of base stock used in the motor oil market today.
Group 1 - Conventional - Mineral oil derived from crude oil
Group 2 - Hydroprocessed - Highly refined mineral oil
Group 3 – Severe hydroprocessed - Ultra refined mineral oil
Group 4 – Full synthetics (chemically derived) - Chemically built Polyalphaolefins (PAO).
As it infers Groups 1 – 3 basestocks are derived from crude oil pumped from the ground whereas Group 4 basestocks are chemically derived, most often from ethylene gas, and contain none of the contaminants present in mineral oils. Just as distilled water is pure water derived from gas so Group 4 basestocks are pure oils derived from gas.
END QUOTE
Hope you find the above quote from Mobil educational and enlightning.
I see a lot of inferring that Group IVs are superior without actually saying it. The reason they don't say it outright is because it's not true.
The Group III vs. Group IV arguments are ridiculous.
Group IV oils are usually made from things that did not start as oil. Group III oils are made from things that started as oil. Does it matter?
Yes, Group III is cheaper to make but the process to make Group III is much newer than the process to make Group IV.
Has anyone been able to prove that the best Group III oils are inferior to the worst Group IV oils? If Group IV was that superior then no Group III oil should be able to stand up to any Group IV oil. As it stands, Pennzoil Platinum and Ultra are Group III oils that many on this board consider superior to the competition that contains Group IV.
Can this topic finally die?
Sorry to say, this topic will never die. The only thing I can suggest is that the Group III naysayers should really try and find the time to take a tour of a quality refiner and see just exactly how crude oil is processed. You can read all you want to and think you know all you want to, but until you have actually seen the process from beginning to end, you really don't have a good grasp on what you are talking about.
I use to feel the same way years ago, but I finally saw the light.
I use to feel the same way years ago, but I finally saw the light.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: qship1996
well group 1,2,and 3 are all different levels of refined mineral oil, while group 4 and 5 are chemically composed.....you make your own conclusions
Cars, paper clips, and rebar are all made of metal. Big Macs, filet mignons, and dog food are all made of meat. Cowpox, mushrooms, and human beings all come from DNA.
You make your own conclusions.
Originally Posted By: qship1996
well group 1,2,and 3 are all different levels of refined mineral oil, while group 4 and 5 are chemically composed.....you make your own conclusions
Cars, paper clips, and rebar are all made of metal. Big Macs, filet mignons, and dog food are all made of meat. Cowpox, mushrooms, and human beings all come from DNA.
You make your own conclusions.
There are also various levels of quality in PAO base oils so technically,a good group III can be superior to a mediocre PAO in every way. Way to many oils now that are blends like Schaeffer that are performing better than some really famous "full synthetics". No names need be mentioned.
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