What Factors Are Swaying EV Adoption in the U.S.?

[Cujet]

The video is two guys talking about towing 8500 pounds with a Rivian.

TLDR, 75 miles, 5000 foot elevation gain, 85% of battery used up in 75 miles, only 2% regen on the way down. Battery too hot to recharge at a reasonable rate.

Conclusion, it tows just fine, but it runs through the battery super fast and will be extremely slow to charge because of it. It can't do half ton stuff.

 

[UncleDave]

I know airliners need to divert air from the air circulation system in order to start the engines. I was stuck on an aircraft that couldn't start until they fixed the system.

However, I've been reading enough about how Teslas have been able to sit in the sun or freezing weather and still operate heating or cooling while they charge. They have to be powered on during charging to control all that stuff anyways, including possibly cooling the batteries while they charge. However, the primary mission of the cooling system will be to cool down the battery on a hot day, so it might divert some of that. That the battery is actively cooled is probably one reason why the batteries might last so long compared to consumer electronics that don't typically have any battery cooling.

The big thing seems to be whether or not certain eco modes are turned on to reduce the use of battery power for heating or cooling. However, I've looked around and a Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt, BMW i3, Mustang Mach E, etc. usually can charge and blow A/C at the same time. However, sometimes the user has to play around with the settings to get it to work since many are designed to use as little electricity as possible and the general idea is that most users aren't going to be charging and staying in the vehicle.

It's kind of interesting too as some of these vehicles use heat pumps for more efficiency, where the heat from the active systems can be used for heating the passenger compartment. But it's a bit like a traditional water cooled vehicle where the coolant provides the heat through the heater core.

Charging and running Ac, or charging and heating are often at odds with what the battery wants at that moment in time.

There are often compromises made in the cabin HVAC to give the battery what it wants and all the animals on the farm are far from equal in how they handle this. The latest hyundai ioniq being one that is challenged in this regard.

Unsurprisingly Tesla and its octovalve and heat pump seems to do the best job comparatively in hot and cold temps.

Many EV's have issues charging effectively at the ends of the thermometer.

Bjorn Nyland does the best job Ive seen of measuring the various Ev's in the cold and has a lot to say about this and invented the term "cold gating" to represent diminished EV charging performance in the cold.

 

[y_p_w]

Charging and running Ac, or charging and heating are often at odds with what the battery wants at that moment in time.

There are often compromises made in the cabin HVAC to give the battery what it wants and all the animals on the farm are far from equal in how they handle this. The latest hyundai ioniq being one that is challenged in this regard.

Unsurprisingly Tesla and its octovalve and heat pump seems to do the best job comparatively in hot and cold temps.

Many EV's have issues charging effectively at the ends of the thermometer.

Bjorn Nyland does the best job Ive seen of measuring the various Ev's in the cold and has a lot to say about this and invented the term "cold gating" to represent diminished EV charging performance in the cold.

This is also a fairly new set of technologies. I mean - battery powered electric vehicles have been around since forever, but they could deal with short range when they were just for tooling around town at slow speeds or forklifts/golf carts that are relatively slow. How long did it take to figure out fuel injection? Or catalytic converters? Every mid to late 70s car with a catalytic converter is horrendous at power relative to displacement. This isn't an insurmountable problem.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

It's kind of interesting too as some of these vehicles use heat pumps for more efficiency, where the heat from the active systems can be used for heating the passenger compartment.

I think one challenge here is that the quantity of heat available from the battery and subsystems may not be particularly high compared to cabin requirements. Charging losses might be around 1% of the prevailing charge rate or tractive power.

But it's a bit like a traditional water cooled vehicle where the coolant provides the heat through the heater core.

I understand the Tesla 3/Y does this while the Kona's heat pump has both an evaporator and condenser directly in the HVAC cabin airflow. Both can operate for dehumidification or AC reheat. There's a 5 kW PTC in the airflow for heating backup in cold temps.

Battery pack heating on the Kona is done with a 2 kW PTC rather than the HP (effectively the same as Tesla's motor trickery). But unlike the Tesla heating only happens while charging under 15°C or when driving under -5°C, there's no pre-emptive heating approaching a charger and in general charge rates are much lower.

Cooling is either passive through the front radiator or via the AC using a refrigerant/coolant heat exchanger. It appears that can operate in conjunction with cabin cooling.

 

[y_p_w]

I think one challenge here is that the quantity of heat available from the battery and subsystems may not be particularly high compared to cabin requirements. Charging losses might be around 1% of the prevailing charge rate or tractive power.

I understand the Tesla 3/Y does this while the Kona's heat pump has both an evaporator and condenser directly in the HVAC cabin airflow. Both can operate for dehumidification or AC reheat. There's a 5 kW PTC in the airflow for heating backup in cold temps.

Battery pack heating on the Kona is done with a 2 kW PTC rather than the HP (effectively the same as Tesla's motor trickery). But unlike the Tesla heating only happens while charging under 15°C or when driving under -5°C, there's no pre-emptive heating approaching a charger and in general charge rates are much lower.

Cooling is either passive through the front radiator or via the AC using a refrigerant/coolant heat exchanger. It appears that can operate in conjunction with cabin cooling.

I get that. However, a lot of early hybrid and EV energy reduction techniques are about using as much energy that would normally be wasted, such as via regenerative braking or using battery heat to supplement induction heat.

However, I remember when my parents told me that we weren't going to turn on the heater in our 70s car because it would be wasting energy. What I didn't know then......

 

[PandaBear]

The video is two guys talking about towing 8500 pounds with a Rivian.

TLDR, 75 miles, 5000 foot elevation gain, 85% of battery used up in 75 miles, only 2% regen on the way down. Battery too hot to recharge at a reasonable rate.

Conclusion, it tows just fine, but it runs through the battery super fast and will be extremely slow to charge because of it. It can't do half ton stuff.

It probably wasn't intended for this use case. Any hybrid driver would tell you going up then down for a long range would always waste a lot of energy going up and the battery can't regen and kept all the energy back going down.

So, until we have huge battery for EV, we will be 1) charging everyday for long commute, 2) waste some energy going downhill, 3) may need to fully charge up before going uphill, 4) slap a generator to the bed for frequent hill climb duty (basically turn it into a hybrid).

 

[Cujet]

It probably wasn't intended for this use case. Any hybrid driver would tell you going up then down for a long range would always waste a lot of energy going up and the battery can't regen and kept all the energy back going down.

So, until we have huge battery for EV, we will be 1) charging everyday for long commute, 2) waste some energy going downhill, 3) may need to fully charge up before going uphill, 4) slap a generator to the bed for frequent hill climb duty (basically turn it into a hybrid).

That's the point. There are a great many people claiming that electric pickup trucks can do the job. They can't. Despite a huge 135kwh battery, it can only go a short distance, then won't charge fast. I'd call that utterly useless. Yes boss, the parts will be there next week. Yes, I know I used to do the drive in one day. But now I have to charge 16 times and wait hours before charging for the battery to cool off.

 

[PandaBear]

That's the point. There are a great many people claiming that electric pickup trucks can do the job. They can't. Despite a huge 135kwh battery, it can only go a short distance, then won't charge fast. I'd call that utterly useless. Yes boss, the parts will be there next week. Yes, I know I used to do the drive in one day. But now I have to charge 16 times and wait hours before charging for the battery to cool off.

MOST of the people driving pickups don't do that day to day, no it is not the jack of all trade conquer the world vehicle you dreamed that it would be. Having said that, there are values for these vehicles and maybe it is not for 20-80% of the people, but, as a new product with limited production volume, it is a good thing to have in the market. Maybe you shouldn't buy it, but it is not wrong to build it and someone buying it.

What about contractors wanting to power a job site without a generator? What about people living in a pancake state? What about urban cowboy (at least 30-50% of the pickup drivers)? What about people going camping with a group of friends and want 1 EV to provide electricity at a campground? What about people with a 20 year old pickup at home for that 1 trip per year to haul things uphill, but wanting to tailgate every weekend?

Anyways, you get my point, you can call it a pseudo pickup, but IMO there is some use to it as long as the battery last (and Rivian isn't out of business by the time you need replacement battery, just like Jaguar or Mitsubishi isn't out of business by the time your cars are 10 year old).

Another example: Prius V is a "not so good" hybrid because it only gets 40mpg in real world, so people are likely going to buy a real Prius for 55mpg instead. However, it is a great wagon for hauling some amount of cargos around between offices (a lot of couriers use them), it is a great family vehicle for 4, somehow they weren't anywhere else outside of Sunnyvale, I can see probably 5 everyday not including mine. Maybe the perfect "CUV" for engineering mom? I don't know, I didn't realize how great it is until after I have it for a year. Maybe Rivian is the same, you won't know how useful it is until your friend owns one.

 

[LDM]

That's the point. There are a great many people claiming that electric pickup trucks can do the job. They can't. Despite a huge 135kwh battery, it can only go a short distance, then won't charge fast. I'd call that utterly useless. Yes boss, the parts will be there next week. Yes, I know I used to do the drive in one day. But now I have to charge 16 times and wait hours before charging for the battery to cool off.

It like most EVs, it will sit next to gas powered vehicles that actually get used for real work/use. I imagine anyone that is considering buying this thing and thinking it will replace a gas/diesel truck for real work will promptly get rid of it once they realize just how bad it is. If all you want to do is drive around town for a few miles at a time, yeah, it will be fine for that. Hauling/towing anything for more than 40-50 miles? It'll be sitting in the driveway while a gas truck does the real work.

I actually saw one of these driving around where I live, the only thing I can say is at least it isn't as hideous as the Cybertruck.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

It like most EVs, it will sit next to gas powered vehicles that actually get used for real work/use. I imagine anyone that is considering buying this thing and thinking it will replace a gas/diesel truck for real work will promptly get rid of it once they realize just how bad it is. If all you want to do is drive around town for a few miles at a time, yeah, it will be fine for that. Hauling/towing anything for more than 40-50 miles? It'll be sitting in the driveway while a gas truck does the real work.

I actually saw one of these driving around where I live, the only thing I can say is at least it isn't as hideous as the Cybertruck.

There is nothing short of total elimination of I.C.E. vehicles that could possibly see me sign papers for an EV. Sure they may have a purpose as big city commute vehicles. To me thats about it.

 

[DwightFrye]

I think very few of the Rivians will actually be used as work trucks or for towing boats or trailers. So for most owners, they won't care about short range while towing. As others mentioned, we'll see them owned by urban cowboys and used for weekend trips to Home Depot or the nursery to get a few bags of mulch.

I suspect that a lot of Rivians will be bought as "status" vehicles and to be the first on one's block with an electric truck. That's all fine.
When battery technology advances much further, I could really see the advantage of an electric truck as a work vehicle on job sites or for camping. But we aren't going to see that in 2022. Or 2023, 2024, 2025.......

 

[Job]

Not seeing anything in the video very new. Two guys talking. Even power tools can’t be recharged if the battery gets too hot. Throw them away and get gas powered tools I guess. The development won’t stop here. They can keep the battery cooler. Towing uphill 8500 lbs? You don’t use a battery pack for that yet.

 

[PandaBear]

My thinking is this would be an OK truck in a fleet of many. Company may send it out for some jobs but not others. For residential customers they may buy this or lease this (like most early EV adopters) to see how it works out, and if not they will just return it after the lease end without much problem.

It can be a pretty useful truck for some local delivery or equipment mounted to the bed, something that's electric powered but not engine powered. I can see them being popular in farmer's market or driven indoor directly to drop off stuff, power some equipment during work hours (conferences), etc.

Let's be real, people sell their perfectly fine car and buy another one due to circumstances all the time: having kids, switching jobs to a long commutes, bought a boat, etc etc. Unless it has reliability issue people can just buy and sell it as they see fit, someone will find a use for it and someone won't, it is a free market.

 

[Cujet]

To clarify my point, the Rivian will be unsuitable to tow (in a reasonable time) a fishing boat to the Florida Keys for a weekend fishing trip. We've heard many claims that it's gonna be possible. I'm saying it won't work well, for all the reasons outlined in that video discussion. Very limited towing range, coupled with hot huge batteries that need to cool off and take forever to charge.

To say that a pickup truck that can't do the job, is somehow OK, is grossly in error.

 

[Renzo]

I do not think that we are anywhere near a proper, working pickup truck that is electric powered. A diesel electric hybrid pickup would be fantastic, but has not been built yet.
However, if you own a luxury SUV, the electric ones are much cheaper to run. In the family we had an X5 with the turbo V8, great car, cost an arm and a leg to operate. Sold it, bought an E-Tron, saving us a good chunk of money per month actually. Both bought used, very low mileage (like new). Audi has warranty on everything until the end of 2026, it will be gone by then.
For long trips we just take the 335d or the F250, cannot beat diesel efficiency for long trips.

 

[PandaBear]

To say that a pickup truck that can't do the job, is somehow OK, is grossly in error.

People complained about Crossover not being a real SUV, but that doesn't prevent soccer moms and urban cowboys from buying them. How many pickup owners do you know who never tow a boat? Does it matter if they buy the Rivian and not a boat to go with it? How many company work trucks have you seen being used to tow a boat to the Florida keys?

Would it make you feel better if we invent a new term and sell these Rivians, like CUT (cross over utility truck)?

 

[Trav]

That does sound like any sort of vehicle that could do real truck duty. Just another toilet.

 

[E365]

Regarding the TFL Rivian towing test up the “Ike Gauntlet” and other TFL mountainous towing tests, one could argue ICE vehicles also struggle in those conditions.

• 2017 Titan got a horrible 3.2 MPG for a theoretical range of 83 miles.
• 2021 Silverado 6.2/10A Transmission Overheated
• 2020(?) F-150 Hybrid got 3.8 MPG and Overheated
• 2021 Ram 1500 TRX brakes overheated/smoked/caught on fire.

 

[edyvw]

Regarding the TFL Rivian towing test up the “Ike Gauntlet” and other TFL mountainous towing tests, one could argue ICE vehicles also struggle in those conditions.

• 2017 Titan got a horrible 3.2 MPG for a theoretical range of 83 miles.
• 2021 Silverado 6.2/10A Transmission Overheated
• 2020(?) F-150 Hybrid got 3.8 MPG and Overheated
• 2021 Ram 1500 TRX brakes overheated/smoked/caught on fire.

I drive that road twice a week.
First of all, no one tows that fast uphill or like that downhill. Otherwise, it would be littered with trucks.
Second, mpg is irrelevant compared to EV. Why? Bcs. there is bunch of gas stations at the end where you can refill.

 

[KJH]

Second, mpg is irrelevant compared to EV. Why? Bcs. there is bunch of gas stations at the end where you can refill.

Yep, biggest problem is not necessarily range, its charging. I also dont understand why EVanglists on this forum cite "towing the boat to the local lake once a year" as the sole towing use case for the average truck owner. Nearly all of my buddies own trucks and would be considered "suburban cowboys" if I told you their job and what they use their trucks for 95% of the time(which indeed usually includes towing a boat or camper a short distance a couple times a year). But every single year, nearly all of them use their trucks for towing or bed hauling on unrelated trips that would have been basically impossible for an EV truck. They didnt buy the truck with the trips they took specifically in mind or knowing they would ever need them for that use, the trips were facilitated by the fact they had a truck that was capable of towing a 30 foot boat across 5 states, or a racecar across the country, or a bed full of duck decoys and hunting gear for an 8 hour drive, all driving done in a day with minimal downtime. Having that kind of capability opens up possibilities to do tons of stuff for work or play, that idea is what many people buy trucks for whether they ever take advantage of those possibilities or not. I know that the suburban cowboy demo I'm familiar with would be very turned off by the lack of capability, even if they were to only use it once in their ownership of the vehicle.