What exactly is a "Living wage"?

[PandaBear]

Usually, the pay for min wage would allow either many single people to share an apartment together, with long commute (2.5-3 hrs round trip minimum), no health insurance (but you qualify for medicare or Medicaid / medical, etc), and food would be likely EBT subsidized or work place paid (say you work at McD you get a free meal on your shift).

Want to move somewhere cheaper? They would pay you less as well to match that, or you can't even find those jobs. Demand and supply at work. People in this country are free to move around unlike some other nations, so things do balance out.

If you are making 15/hr and pay 1k for rent on your own, you probably would need to work way more than 40hr a week somehow. The risk of falling behind would be very high otherwise as you won't be able to save much at all.

OTR trucker probably still need a "home base" when not on the road, like a room at mom's basement for example, to store personal belonging. He would be homeless otherwise. It is still a cost but someone else is paying for it, that's all.

Some math I have from local info:

McD wage: $17/hr
1 room of an apartment from someone's house: $1k / mo
Food you cook on your own: $300-500 / mo, assuming you eat cheap but healthy
Insurance if using employers' plan: $120 / mo
Transportation (Corolla, 2 hr round trip a day, $15 / day of gas alone): $15 gas $350 / mo on insurance depreciation repair maintenance, etc
Phone / water / electricity / etc: $150 / mo?

$2720 - 1k - 400 - 120 - 350 - 150 = 700 to cover other expense, like tax and some other fees. Say you have that $400 tax from Central NY figure that'll give you like $300 / mo left if you don't use gov subsidies.

Sounds optimistic, I'm sure I'm missing something somewhere. That Corolla costing only $350/mo all inclusive other than fuel seems too low, but you probably wont' buy a new car run it to the ground at that income, you are probably driving a $5k beater till it blew and buy another one if you cannot patch it up cheap, so maybe it is doable. Or $400/mo is no way to eat for a whole month, maybe you need $600, I don't know.

For the local new college grad I know who "move out of mom's basement", I think the cheapest they can afford to live is probably about 55k a year. That would probably be a "comfortable" standard.

I redid the math and realize I forgot the gas of 20 days a month, that'll be $300 and eat up the whole remaining amount. So hopefully that $400/mo tax is not there for this income bracket, otherwise it would be 0 saving after "living expense".

 

[wpod]

How about $200K plus for sitting on their butt and writing computer programs in an airconditioned, drop dead gorgeous building.
I can tell you that ticket taker works harder than than that programmer. Especially dealing with people, some of which may be looking down on them.

Level of ability and or skill? I have in my group of friends that I grew up with that are an airline pilot, eye surgeon , and an attorney and Business owner . Their income is much , much greater than mine because they are smarter and hold much more advanced requirements to learn and perform their occupations. Even in 6,7, and 8th grade I realized they were way, way smarter than I was, am , or will ever be. My good looks and charm though should have earned me at least a haly million a year after taxes.

 

[wpod]

But we still need people to take tickets, collect the trash, clean the bathrooms. Shouldn't they be able to sustain themselves in exchange for their labor?

Supply and demand? The CEOS need their huge salary and benefit packages.

 

[The Critic]

Level of ability and or skill? I have in my group of friends that I grew up with that are an airline pilot, eye surgeon , and an attorney and Business owner . Their income is much , much greater than mine because they are smarter and hold much more advanced requirements to learn and perform their occupations. Even in 6,7, and 8th grade I realized they were way, way smarter than I was, am , or will ever be. My good looks and charm though should have earned me at least a haly million a year after taxes.

Not necessarily. A lot of it is dependent on demand and potential user base impact.

CRNA’s and other mid-level providers are a good example of that.

 

[wpod]

A jiffy lube oil change tech isn't worth the same $$ as a journey level service tech. the skill level ! The Journey men service tech guys where I worked made an easy double of what the oil change guys did. I could tell whether a journey man service tech or an oil change guy did the service.

 

[Dave Hess]

For the local new college grad I know who "move out of mom's basement", I think the cheapest they can afford to live is probably about 55k a year. That would probably be a "comfortable" standard.

$55K in most major cities is going to be a Bare Bones Budget.

They can live comfortably in a small ‘2 horse town’ .

 

[The Critic]

$55K in most major cities is going to be a Bare Bones Budget.

They can live comfortably in a small ‘2 horse town’ .

Yeah, I am seeing 75-80K to be the new entry-level salary for new college grads in major metropolitan areas. And even that doesn’t go very far.

Wages have gone up quite a bit in recent years - starting to see more and more of my friends in mid level roles hit 150k base for non-technical roles. These are roles that were paying 100-110K a few years ago.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Level of ability and or skill? I have in my group of friends that I grew up with that are an airline pilot, eye surgeon , and an attorney and Business owner . Their income is much , much greater than mine because they are smarter and hold much more advanced requirements to learn and perform their occupations. Even in 6,7, and 8th grade I realized they were way, way smarter than I was, am , or will ever be. My good looks and charm though should have earned me at least a haly million a year after taxes.

What ever the market will bear. It's just that simple.

 

[Cujet]

Like the title says, what is a "Living wage".

A living wage is the feeling that one is entitled to a generally undeserved minimum amount of income. Often through mere existence.

 

[Aredeeem]

I’m not going here. Suffice to say I’m happy I don’t have a dog.

 

[dishdude]

A living wage is the feeling that one is entitled to a generally undeserved minimum amount of income. Often through mere existence.

In exchange for 40+ hours of their labor each week isn't exactly "entitled" or "undeserved".

 

[JeffKeryk]

A living wage is the feeling that one is entitled to a generally undeserved minimum amount of income. Often through mere existence.

In exchange for 40+ hours of their labor each week isn't exactly "entitled" or "undeserved".

All I kow is, there is no fair. If I go looking for it, or expect it, I'm gonna be pretty darn disappointed. And no one will care, so there's that.

 

[John105]

Minimum wage when I was in high school was $3.35/hour. Today that is equivalent to over $29/hour. Just inflation, nothing more.... Yet we have folks screaming that burger flippers don't deserve $15/hour. They're right, they should be getting 2x that.

Reviving an old thread because I too earned minimum wage and it was $3.35. It’s $9.69 in 2023, not $29. The only thing I can think of is maybe you’re talking state and I’m talking federal. Just looked it up $3.35 in 1968 is about $29 in 2023.

Minimum wage is a price floor and we know what it essentially does, similar to rent control.

Personally I don’t think flipping burgers should pay $30 hour. The service is already bad at $18. Because the place has inadequate staff. At $30 an establishment may be closed altogether. There are other factors such as food cost and the lease of the space.

I respect the working folks. Look at Walmart and Trader Joe’s say may 2020. Those front liners didn’t get the pay they deserved. But those who lost their jobs got an extra $600/week ironically

 

[Hall]

and it was $3.35. It’s $9.69 in 2023, not $29.

I have no idea where I got the $29 now

 

[John105]

I have no idea where I got the $29 now

Haha I see…cuz I did earn $3.35. At the time I worked at Cadillac Olds. I did odd jobs and was able to use the lifts too. But I found out the car washers got $4.25 and limo drivers $6. I got my courage up and asked the owner’s son if I could get $4.25. He told me I’d love to but I already put you in payroll and can’t change it. Being gullible I said ok.

 

[Rmay635703]

See...this is the rub. While I appreciate your answer the question remains-"What is adequate?" What is "basic food"? What is basic Housing? What is basic Healthcare? It too much to try to define.

This tells us everything we need to know about living wages in the country. (Hint unemployment is low so that’s not the issue)

 

[SC Maintenance]

Interesting older thread. But the boat has sailed on living wage. If the wage is higher than the employer wishes to pay, they will automate it, or use AI, or ship it off to Mexico or Viet Nam. Its not 1950 anymore where if you wanted something done you needed to pay a warm local body to do it. I presume those advocating living wage ideals already know this - so its simply a slogan to get votes.

I definately think there are people earning too little and being taken advantage of. So a minimum wage is definately needed.

As for whether a programmer/ surgeon / golf pro deserves what they get, its simple supply and demand. There is very few people on earth with that skillset, and the demand is high - hence the money. I presume skilled buggy whip makers made good money in 1850.

 

[PandaBear]

All I kow is, there is no fair. If I go looking for it, or expect it, I'm gonna be pretty darn disappointed. And no one will care, so there's that.

My (computer algorithm) professor always says, "fair is everyone do what I say and gives me what I want, while I do not do the same to them".

There is no "fair" in this world, only what works and what doesn't.

 

[PandaBear]

Reviving an old thread because I too earned minimum wage and it was $3.35. It’s $9.69 in 2023, not $29. The only thing I can think of is maybe you’re talking state and I’m talking federal. Just looked it up $3.35 in 1968 is about $29 in 2023.

Minimum wage is a price floor and we know what it essentially does, similar to rent control.

Personally I don’t think flipping burgers should pay $30 hour. The service is already bad at $18. Because the place has inadequate staff. At $30 an establishment may be closed altogether. There are other factors such as food cost and the lease of the space.

I respect the working folks. Look at Walmart and Trader Joe’s say may 2020. Those front liners didn’t get the pay they deserved. But those who lost their jobs got an extra $600/week ironically

This is why restaurants are doing "self service" a lot and burger places are now just microwaving frozen stuff from factories. People don't want to pay good money and still need to eat, so they have to either DIY somehow or accept lower quality, or just let some of the places disappear.

It is not just the service industry, look at the entire food chain and you are seeing GM food with pesticides and herbicide resistant seeds so they can farm cheaper. You are not going to eat quality food for the same price your parents pay because back then they can't cut corners with technologies, and therefore the cheapest is still 1) expensive, and 2) better quality.

 

[GON]

I have no honest answer, either.

To presume that it's due, in some part, to parenting seems self-serving, at best, though I like to believe that at least some values were instilled as the result of parental influence.

All three of my children are very similar in their clarity of purpose, responsibility, and academic achievement.

I accept that we, as parents, are extraordinarily blessed.

I cannot adequately explain it.

But I will say, and I think I've made this point before, that all three of my children scooped ice cream at that store. The store's owner was a particular and involved boss, with high standards. She was a great influence on the kids as well. Her high standards, her high expectations of all of her employees, were a shaping influence.

For that, I thank her. Sincerely thank her.

Ice cream scooper (and floor scrubber, dish washer, register operator, and the host of other menial tasks expected) isn't a career, but a first job, a teenager's job, and is a valuable stepping stone into the "real world".

Not a career, but an important experience.

I have seen parents provide their children with generous amounts of money, wanting them to "focus" on academics, and avoid the need for a teenage job to earn spending money.

I think this is a mistake. By avoiding the real-world context of a boss, work responsibilities, interacting with customers, how hard people have to work to earn money, etc., those parents who keep their children out of the work force as teenagers have deprived them of important context and perspective on work and life.

So, while I can't answer your question, I can, with absolute certainty, state that their first job was a critically important shaping experience for all of my children, and as I reflect on it, I am even more grateful for the high standards of their first boss.

Having a memory lapse, but read a book that stated the most influential job a person could ever get is their first job. For may, the first job sets the standards for that new worker--- for life.

Have a first job that has high standards and discipline, that young worker may have high standards and discipline in everything they do, for the rest of their life.