What exactly is a "Living wage"?

I see a lot of I've done well through my own efforts and those who don't can live on whatever they can get in this thread. I reject that false premise.
I'll be honest in that I've been very fortunate. Yes, I do have a degree, but they were a whole lot cheaper to earn back then. We own our house, but they were also a whole lot cheaper back then. The house next to us just sold for roughly 4X what we paid for our house back in the eighties and it isn't as nice as ours.
I'll be sixty seven this year and have been able to retire any day of the week with full benefits any day I want for nearly two years now. Not sure when I will. I get six weeks of vacation each year, another four days of personal time and eighty hours of sick time. I rarely use either sick or personal since I enjoy flex time. My job is now quite easy since I've done it for years and my three direct reports can usually do what they need to without much direction or many screw-ups. I am well compensated for what I do.
OTOH, there are many jobs that we all need done that are truly underpaid. I'm thinking about those who police our streets, those who pick and process the fresh fruits and vegetables we all want, the meat processing facilities that keep us all supplied with the cuts we all want as well as the people who clean the hotel rooms we stay in and the guys who handle our luggage when we travel, just to give a few examples.
When we talk about a living wage, we aren't talking about a high school kid making a little fun money taking tickets at the local cineplex. We're talking about adults doing jobs we need to have done for wages that don't correspond to the work they do. It also isn't about some illusory market but rather market power. Employers have it and low wage workers don't. This is what we should seek to change, since people working forty hours a week should be able to earn enough money not to feel financial stress. Not saying they should be able to buy the latest phone or a Caribbean vacation each winter, only that we should see that they get paid enough of what they really earn to live without constant worry.
 
Not a hit on anyone who posted, but I always find it funny how wage talk leads to people complaining about the burger flippers. Why? If you think they got it so good, go apply.

It's called capitalism. You will get paid what the market bears. Good luck and more power to the burger flippers; they work harder than a lotta people. Just my opinion.
 
Not a hit on anyone who posted, but I always find it funny how wage talk leads to people complaining about the burger flippers. Why? If you think they got it so good, go apply.

It's called capitalism. You will get paid what the market bears. Good luck and more power to the burger flippers; they work harder than a lotta people. Just my opinion.

This is also not a hit on anyone who posted….

Most folks here on BITOG are older and remember a time when they were making under $3-4 an hour as a teen.

Times have changed and if it takes $15-16 an hour to hire burger flippers then that’s what it takes to operate a fast food restaurant and keep it properly staffed with employees.

Everyone is wanting (needing) more money.
 
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Not a hit on anyone who posted, but I always find it funny how wage talk leads to people complaining about the burger flippers. Why? If you think they got it so good, go apply.

It's called capitalism. You will get paid what the market bears. Good luck and more power to the burger flippers; they work harder than a lotta people. Just my opinion.
Sounds great, but market power is determinant, not anything like a free capitalist market for labor.
 
Valid points made on "both sides". Comparing the middle class of decades ago to today's middle class doesn't work, because today's middle class has a generally higher standard of what they are after for material ownership and therefore need to make more to accomplish what they see as "making end's meat". Are things more expensive in general? Yes. Do people in general feel more entitled to certain things than in generations past? Yes. Is a single income family still possible? Yes...it's called choices (sacrifices at times). Does upbringing and what one was taught or not taught in regards to work ethic and finances play a role? Absolutely.
 
Since a livable wage is a moving target in most economies a burger flipper at $12.00 per hour living alone might want to apply for a flagger position on construction/ highway sites that pay up to $20.00 per hr. This according to ads posted in mid NH ads.
 
Like the title says, what is a "Living wage".

Had a recent discussion with a parent and their child is a movie ticket taker at a theater. The parent is mad because pay is just above minimum wage and not a "Living wage". I didn't ask because this person has a persecution complex and didn't want to hear it as to why they were thinking that then I also pondered what exactly is a living wage. I can't see a person saying "Your movie is the second door on the right" getting $20 an hour but that's just me.
People routinely conflate the value of a particular job with the subjective value of the individual. Not all jobs are worthy of compensation which enables someone to fulfill the basic needs of food, shelter and security.
 
Sounds great, but market power is determinant, not anything like a free capitalist market for labor.
Sorry, I am not sure what you are saying. Beyond minimum wage requirements, the market generally determines the burger flipper labor rate, right?
The US is not a free market economy.
 
How about $200K plus for sitting on their butt and writing computer programs in an airconditioned, drop dead gorgeous building.
I can tell you that ticket taker works harder than than that programmer. Especially dealing with people, some of which may be looking down on them.
You must not know what it takes to develop software.

It’s not some cushy job like pre-Elon Twitter

They have deadlines to meet and it has to function as the customer wants it.

It requires a lot more skill than a ticket taker at the movie theater which is why they get paid more
 
Went to a NorthEast McD's last week, $28 for 3ea Filet of fish, 1 med fry, 1 med coke. There were multiple forms of tax on the receipt.

Just 4 years ago, that would have been $11 in Florida. $2 and change for each FoF, and 1 meal for $6 and change.

Any way you slice it, the $25/hr thing has doubled the price.

They advertise $25/Hr.
The fast food joints in my area have very little business now. I wouldn't pay those prices. Nothing has been gained by paying non skilled workers $25/hour when prices have steeply climbed as a result.
 
Went to a NorthEast McD's last week, $28 for 3ea Filet of fish, 1 med fry, 1 med coke. There were multiple forms of tax on the receipt.

Just 4 years ago, that would have been $11 in Florida. $2 and change for each FoF, and 1 meal for $6 and change.

Any way you slice it, the $25/hr thing has doubled the price.

They advertise $25/Hr.
Locally we pay $17/hr and your described meal costs $11/meal in New England. Guessing you visited a special location with high rent beyond wages like an airport?
 
You must not know what it takes to develop software.

It’s not some cushy job like pre-Elon Twitter

They have deadlines to meet and it has to function as the customer wants it.

It requires a lot more skill than a ticket taker at the movie theater which is why they get paid more
You might be surprised. Let's just say my programming career worked out pretty well.
Speaking of Elon, I advised Tesla's then CIO, Jay Vijayan, up in Redmond and in Fremont, on their custom ERP project. Pretty famous project...
 
I think there are multiple issues.

1. $15/hr is not enough to be a "live-able" wage, because in my mind a live-able wage allows you to afford an apartment on your own, a used car, etc.

2. The burger flipper jobs were never meant to be careers, they are part-time jobs meant as supplementary income, or for students/temporary workers, not full-time gigs.

I think the biggest contributor to this whole problem is the University system, and the ridiculous requirements corporations have for entry level jobs. In my own department we have managers who started out in entry level jobs without a degree, and worked their way up. Those same entry level jobs now require a bachelor's degree, which we all know the starting salary of those jobs would hardly support paying off the student loans required for that job. You don't need a bachelor's degree to be a clerk typist, or a secretary. Education is important, but that doesn't mean it should always be a hard requirement for every position.

Raising the minimum wage will not fix any of these issues. I think there is a large disconnect between employers and what constitutes a good employee. Just take a look at some job postings and you will know what I mean. Just because you set the standards high doesn't mean those types of people will apply to your job, especially if the pay and job itself is not worthwhile. I saw an opening for an 8-hour per week job at a local town for someone to be a "admin clerk". Basically all they would need to know is how to e-mail and use Microsoft Office. This job was minimum wage, and they wanted someone with a Bachelor's degree and 10 years experience. 🤣
 
This is also not a hit on anyone who posted….

Most folks here on BITOG are older and remember a time when they were making under $3-4 an hour as a teen.

Times have changed and if it takes $15-16 an hour to hire burger flippers then that’s what it takes to operate a fast food restaurant and keep it properly staffed with employees.

Everyone is wanting (needing) more money.
It cost money to live, to provide service, to pay for everything, etc. It is always a competition between producers and consumers and they are the 2 sides of the same coin, so you can say in the end things fall into places where they belong, and that's why just let the market do the work is usually the best.

Burger flippers can always find better paying more comfortable jobs, they are around (security guard, uber driver, grocery store, etc). Restaurants have been using all sorts of things to reduce staffing need like QR code ordering, being fast casual with no tipping, microwaving patties for fast food, etc. In the end not all businesses last and new ones will replace what is needed. Lives go on.

If you want to see what the future looks like, Japan is pretty much ahead of the world on that (in the wrong way IMO, like not importing people to fill the low end jobs, population decline due to birth rate reduction, insist on providing all government services despite losing money to rural area, etc).
 
I think there are multiple issues.

1. $15/hr is not enough to be a "live-able" wage, because in my mind a live-able wage allows you to afford an apartment on your own, a used car, etc.

2. The burger flipper jobs were never meant to be careers, they are part-time jobs meant as supplementary income, or for students/temporary workers, not full-time gigs.

I think the biggest contributor to this whole problem is the University system, and the ridiculous requirements corporations have for entry level jobs. In my own department we have managers who started out in entry level jobs without a degree, and worked their way up. Those same entry level jobs now require a bachelor's degree, which we all know the starting salary of those jobs would hardly support paying off the student loans required for that job. You don't need a bachelor's degree to be a clerk typist, or a secretary. Education is important, but that doesn't mean it should always be a hard requirement for every position.

Raising the minimum wage will not fix any of these issues. I think there is a large disconnect between employers and what constitutes a good employee. Just take a look at some job postings and you will know what I mean. Just because you set the standards high doesn't mean those types of people will apply to your job, especially if the pay and job itself is not worthwhile. I saw an opening for an 8-hour per week job at a local town for someone to be a "admin clerk". Basically all they would need to know is how to e-mail and use Microsoft Office. This job was minimum wage, and they wanted someone with a Bachelor's degree and 10 years experience. 🤣

Is university system the blame to this? In most 1st world country they have these kind of requirements now for a lot of entry level jobs, and they do not have the student debt problem we have because those degrees are majority gov paid for.

If you push back far enough you can say 50% of the jobs today do not need a high school degree either. Look at 3rd world and they have factory workers and others who have not gone for more than elementary schools, and they work just fine. Would we say we need high school or should public education stop at middle school? It is probably debatable on that subject as well.

Cost of living wise, there is always a demand and supply and we have seen that in the job market, but in the last 50 years we pretty much only see opinion on "you must go to college". Now we have seen a world wide shortage of blue collar workers and an oversupply of white collar workers. If there is any opportunity to "fix" that it would be what we have now: not worth going to college for a liberal art degree vs going to a vocational school to learn how to work trades, and pay them better than white collar jobs, and not look down on them.
 
My dad supported a family of 6 on an airline mechanic pay.

Imagine having 4 kids today, a stay at home mom, 2 cars and detached 3 bedroom house on 1 salary in 2023 ?

IMPOSSIBLE for the same A&P airline mechanic to do that today.
Airline deregulation and corrupt CEOs and upper management.
 
I do not consider myself one of the brighter lights on the string but I went to continuing ed classes to improve my worth to my employer and self instead of watching Tv, drinking beer and smoking joints.
 
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Sounds great, but market power is determinant, not anything like a free capitalist market for labor.
In 1971 President Nixon and Henry Kissinger opened trade with China and took the dollar off of the gold standard to inflate the nations out of the Vietnam war costs. We can start the demise there. I move out of the parents home when I was 19 when my A&P friend bought a house in Pacifica Ca, I remember I bought a 74 Chevy pick up. Cheyenne package for $5.300.00 out the door to tow my boat to the lake and camp out. I was making $8.50 per hour working for Safeway with full medical and dental benefits ,paid sick leave and vacation pay, I owned my first house in San Bruno California in 1976.
 
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