What exactly is a "Living wage"?

[PandaBear]

Focus on having fewer children? If people quit spending money on stupid crap they don't need they can support more children. Not all families...there are some that legitimately struggle based on income but we've swung the pendulum too far the other way over the last few decades where now it's seen as impossible to live on one income and raise multiple kids, when in reality people just aren't willing to sacrifice. It's all about choices.

What is your definition on "support more children". Why do I want to have 4 high school drop outs instead of 2 college grads with a student loan to pay off or 1 college grad with no student loan?

Based on the pay scale the society does not want 4 high school drop outs, but they would prefer 2 college grads with a student loan or 1 college grad with no student loan.

The 2 college grads with student loans will start families much later so they can pay off the student loans (assuming 10 years), they will have fewer children and their children would also start families much later (again due to student loans compounding), than the 1 college grad with no student loan.

Numbers always work out in the end, stupid craps do not cost much these days, it is student loans and housing cost that matter, nothing else are more than pocket changes.

 

[uc50ic4more]

I sat on a Board a few years ago that advised a bi-annual commission on living wage. Living wage differs - sometimes dramatically - from area to area within a catchment area (like a province or state who'd set minimum wage) and accounts for food security, transportation, housing, education, etc.

In our area (Ontario, Canada), for example, living in a small town is a far, far, far cry from living in Toronto. As I recall the amount(s) that were set per municipality or region presumed a family of 4. In most cases it was within spitting distance of the minimum wage; with outliers being the one comically expensive city in our province and some rural areas.

 

[Andrew1972]

Automation is a decent fit at our local target that pays $15-$20/hr and still has trouble finding help.

 

[PandaBear]

I remember one broker asking me if I knew anyone that specialized in Section 8 and I told him that was like specializing in failure. They do pull the changing the rent amount trick, but normally you submit the paperwork and then within a week or so they tell you what rent amount is approved and if you don't like it, you can just drop them. They never say anything about discriminating or anything like that.

I've had section 8 tenants in the past and some of them used to complain a lot. Sometimes they were just home a lot so had lots of time on their hands to complain. I would tell people it's because they want to make sure the government gets their money's worth. For me section 8 was middle of the road, I've had worse tenants where I've had to evict about a dozen plus over the last few years, every one of them cost me several thousand in lost rent, repair costs, etc, worst was probably 6-8k, empty a few months, a few months of unpaid rent and a few thousand in damages to the apartment. At least the section 8 tenants paid the rent and I never actually had to evict a section 8 tenant although I've had to spend a few hundred here and there to fix the place up afterwards but then you're in the grey zone of wear and tear. A couple times they left the place a mess and I called them to tell them it wasn't like that when they got it and I'd hate to call section 8 and have them lose their voucher so they came back and cleaned the place up.

The "discriminating" thing was a California thing. On average it took us like 1 month to get a response for me, and if I don't even pretend to consider their applications then yeah, can be "arbitration" or stuff like that.

It depends on the location I think, if you are in above average condition and quality you most likely will end up being docked for section 8 rate and if you already know, you still need to consider their applications only to turn them down with some wasted time. They need to have a voucher that has an up to date price instead of telling you after the fact. That'll solve most of my complain.

 

[PimTac]

In the case of cashier automation, many stores move those people to other positions with the store or chain.

 

[97prizm]

How about $200K plus for sitting on their butt and writing computer programs in an airconditioned, drop dead gorgeous building.
I can tell you that ticket taker works harder than than that programmer. Especially dealing with people, some of which may be looking down on them.

Go get an IT security and comp tia plus certification then let me know how easy it is. Supply and demand.

 

[97prizm]

As far as a "Living Wage" Colorado residents like myself are finding the rent and sky high housing prices tough. My parents neighborhood was $225-250k housing three years ago. Now $475-500k. Its now said that $25 an hour in most of the front range is the poverty line.

 

[Dave Hess]

I wonder how many people on BITOG help their kids buys a home ?

 

[tbm5690]

What is your definition on "support more children". Why do I want to have 4 high school drop outs instead of 2 college grads with a student loan to pay off or 1 college grad with no student loan?

Based on the pay scale the society does not want 4 high school drop outs, but they would prefer 2 college grads with a student loan or 1 college grad with no student loan.

The 2 college grads with student loans will start families much later so they can pay off the student loans (assuming 10 years), they will have fewer children and their children would also start families much later (again due to student loans compounding), than the 1 college grad with no student loan.

Numbers always work out in the end, stupid craps do not cost much these days, it is student loans and housing cost that matter, nothing else are more than pocket changes.

For argument's sake I'll say "more children" is anything 2+....2 is the minimum average for avoiding population decline which is never good for any society. In what world does having 4 kids mean that they will all be academic failures??? You also assume that everyone's student debt (if they have any) is crippling to the point of arresting their ability to start a family. In some cases it is, but if the kids are smart they don't go 200k into debt on a useless degree that pays 40k per year. It happens...you reap what you sow. Also, saying that debt becomes a generational snowball is a sad perspective that I hope isn't true...I hope I'm not the only parent that wants to set my kids up with the tools for financial success.

 

[PandaBear]

For argument's sake I'll say "more children" is anything 2+....2 is the minimum average for avoiding population decline which is never good for any society. In what world does having 4 kids mean that they will all be academic failures??? You also assume that everyone's student debt (if they have any) is crippling to the point of arresting their ability to start a family. In some cases it is, but if the kids are smart they don't go 200k into debt on a useless degree that pays 40k per year. It happens...you reap what you sow. Also, saying that debt becomes a generational snowball is a sad perspective that I hope isn't true...I hope I'm not the only parent that wants to set my kids up with the tools for financial success.

Well, you sort of have to use statistics to run number like that, so based on people I know, most of the 3+ kids family are not able to afford more than raising their kids to high school then let them survive on their own with student loans. I know most of the 2 kids family can afford to pay for their kids' college, and the only child one would be able to send them to private school, tutoring, help them buy their first home early, etc.

I don't care about what population is "good for society". IMO the number will balance itself out and will pay people according to what make sense. So far based on the low vs high skill jobs' pay we as a society values fewer people with more skills, so there is no incentive for me to reproduce too many children when the "customers" want to automate my children's job away at the lower skill level.

I am sure you are a good parent, and you can raise 4 kids fine. I have 2 kids, will never have more than that, was actually considering only one in the past but I figure I can afford 1 more.

What I can say is, had I gotten 1 more sibling I would have to probably pay off my own student loan, bought a home 10 years later than I would have, and pay 900k more due to home price increase, and I would definitely only be able to afford 1 kid instead of 2. I am sure I would have been fine too but I wouldn't be as successful. The competitive advantage of having more resources to raise fewer children is real, assuming you are making the same choices like picking the same major in college (no deadbeat major), having tutoring in high school, buying your home 5-10 years earlier, living in a smaller home but better school district instead of a larger home in a lesser school district, having more parenting time due to shorter commute, etc.

I am comparing my career to my coworkers and roommates from school, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Go get an IT security and comp tia plus certification then let me know how easy it is. Supply and demand.

I am not talking about skill, certification, education. I am talking about the effort required doing the job.

 

[Andrew1972]

In the case of cashier automation, many stores move those people to other positions with the store or chain.

Yes like spending better time doing assembling pickup orders and taking to customer vehicles. Jobs are not removed just shifted about….

 

[zrxkawboy]

I am not talking about skill, certification, education. I am talking about the effort required doing the job.

But unless someone is willing to put forth the effort to earn that degree and certification, they probably can’t do the job. Also, some jobs require more physical effort, while others require mental effort.

 

[JeffKeryk]

But unless someone is willing to put forth the effort to earn that degree and certification, they probably can’t do the job. Also, some jobs require more physical effort, while others require mental effort.

I'll take mental effort all day long over physical effort. That's all I'm saying.
I did tree work all day long in the hot sun with the boss screaming at the crew, calling us every name in the book. For pennies.
Computer programming is like opening a present every day, in a beautiful air conditioned office. And then they throw money at you, while paying for your education. Even telling you to take work time to complete your ecucation. Not to mention sending me all over our beautiful planet to meet with people and develop business solutions. That's my experience.

 

[zyxelenator]

I'll take mental effort all day long over physical effort. That's all I'm saying.
I did tree work all day long in the hot sun with the boss screaming at the crew, calling us every name in the book. For pennies.
Computer programming is like opening a present every day, in a beautiful air conditioned office. And then they throw money at you, while paying for your education. Even telling you to take work time to complete your ecucation. Not to mention sending me all over our beautiful planet to meet with people and develop business solutions. That's my experience.

tell that to folks that have to do production support on call. What can be better "than opening present" at 3 am with a phone call, on Sunday night that tell you that some shi#% just hit a fan...

 

[JHZR2]

As far as a "Living Wage" Colorado residents like myself are finding the rent and sky high housing prices tough. My parents neighborhood was $225-250k housing three years ago. Now $475-500k. Its now said that $25 an hour in most of the front range is the poverty line.

Yet wages haven’t increased as much as that property appreciation. It’s funny money, self fueling. Appreciation someplace that then gets carried into a new place, or just appreciation locally…

Of course living wages to live don’t guarantee home ownership. But the funny money appreciation of late does make it harder for them. I feel for them.

 

[Wolf359]

Yet wages haven’t increased as much as that property appreciation. It’s funny money, self fueling. Appreciation someplace that then gets carried into a new place, or just appreciation locally…

Of course living wages to live don’t guarantee home ownership. But the funny money appreciation of late does make it harder for them. I feel for them.

Well don't forget stock market appreciations and crypto fortunes. While they've been down lately, they still haven't gone to zero yet.

 

[Andrew1972]

Yet wages haven’t increased as much as that property appreciation. It’s funny money, self fueling. Appreciation someplace that then gets carried into a new place, or just appreciation locally…

Of course living wages to live don’t guarantee home ownership. But the funny money appreciation of late does make it harder for them. I feel for them.

The issue with home prices is rent follows. Locally companies struggle to fill entry level and even internships because no one wants to commute 30-45 mins in as rentals are scarce and obviously expensive. These are professional jobs too. They had to convince the local city to build modern apartment buildings to fill the gap. There is a reason my neighbor with 1 year of college taking Covid skip year was able to get a $30/hr job cleaning pharma equipment to strict standards. She was able to live with parents.

Living wage includes housing and living with parents is not an answer.

 

[alarmguy]

Ohhh boy ...
"A living wage" there is no such thing, people are looking for some magical utopian world that will never ever exist in the animal kingdom, meaning all of mankind.

Dont people understand?
Because someone or some group of people bring up this "living wage" thing in social media, it explodes into some fictional utopian fantasy.

We are free people, individuals, live your lives and make what you can of it. There is no easier place on earth do to that then right here, there are so many free programs if you take the initiative that will enable you to be able to support yourself with a "living wage".
No one is entitled to anything, sink or swim, starve or support yourself, its up to you, you are given so many free tools do to so. The US Military is one great example and there are other endless inexpensive ways to achieve independence.
If you fail, society will back you up with food, sometimes housing but that's it.

There will never be some magical living wage because the people that work hard will be able to buy more and better stuff and live in better housing, the market in a free society will always meet the demands of the hard workers and this will make things more expensive to those who want to scrape by on the non existent social media "living wage".

 

[JeffKeryk]

tell that to folks that have to do production support on call. What can be better "than opening present" at 3 am with a phone call, on Sunday night that tell you that some shi#% just hit a fan...

I was responsible for a world wide custom application that drove a billion dollar company. I know all about working 24x7.
I was on a 1st name basis with workers form Japan, China, Taiwan, Europe, etc.
And it is a heck of a lot easier than manual labor.