What does quality mean to YOU?
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It'd be in the front if their engines faced the right way.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Ibeg to differ. I replaced my car's clutch with the car on jack stands on a garage floor. There are numerous newer BMWs among my other friends and almost all of them similarly easy to work on.
Done that myself on an Eclipse. Not really an advanage for ze Deutsch.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I think it's safe to say you do not represent most of their customers.
What is that supposed to mean?
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
BMW does the same thing now, and most other companies are starting to follow.
However counterintuitive you find the computer, it's infinitely more intuitive than a dipstick to the kind of person who doesn't even know what transmission fluid is.
The last few I checked, the computer only checks the engine oil. Not the transmission. You can buy the dipstick for the MB separately. I just think it should come with the car.
So, because I like to get my hands dirty,experience the almost zen-like qualities of maintaining my machine?Because being in the Armored Cav taught me to care for my "horse" first, then saddle, thenrider?.because of these things, I am not a German car customer?
I guess when one German company advertised "Drivers Wanted" they should have also advertised, "Pit crew need not apply."
The Germans have no Zen. It is not a Teutonic concept.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Different parts of an assembly may be subject to different forces or have different amounts of room in which to place the fasteners. Sounds like you would rather have them design the housings to use the same fasteners all around, rather than designing them to work well and choosing the fasteners afterward. That's fine, but it's not "efficient."
My transmission's bellhousing is like that. IIRC there are three different bolt sizes. It just means I have to change sockets twice while removing the bolts...
No, I'm talking about a cosmetic plastic cover that uses Phillips screws and TWO (2) different size Torx fasteners. One stupid cosmetic cover. No varying forces. Room is not a consideration. It's just silliness and seems to be designed to deter the average user from accessing what is underneath.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
By contrast, oil changes are easier and cleaner on my car than on my brother's eminently practical Honda.
No argument from me on that one.
The K-series Honda oil filter accessibility is so bad that Honda techs themselves were double gasketing oil filters and there were reports of several Element/CRV fires.
My Ford Duratec/Mazda MZIwrapped the front cylinder bank pre-cat around the filter. Get an "Ov-glove" or brand the back of your hand on the catalyst.
Ibeg to differ. I replaced my car's clutch with the car on jack stands on a garage floor. There are numerous newer BMWs among my other friends and almost all of them similarly easy to work on.
Done that myself on an Eclipse. Not really an advanage for ze Deutsch.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I think it's safe to say you do not represent most of their customers.
What is that supposed to mean?
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
BMW does the same thing now, and most other companies are starting to follow.
However counterintuitive you find the computer, it's infinitely more intuitive than a dipstick to the kind of person who doesn't even know what transmission fluid is.
The last few I checked, the computer only checks the engine oil. Not the transmission. You can buy the dipstick for the MB separately. I just think it should come with the car.
So, because I like to get my hands dirty,experience the almost zen-like qualities of maintaining my machine?Because being in the Armored Cav taught me to care for my "horse" first, then saddle, thenrider?.because of these things, I am not a German car customer?
I guess when one German company advertised "Drivers Wanted" they should have also advertised, "Pit crew need not apply."
The Germans have no Zen. It is not a Teutonic concept.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Different parts of an assembly may be subject to different forces or have different amounts of room in which to place the fasteners. Sounds like you would rather have them design the housings to use the same fasteners all around, rather than designing them to work well and choosing the fasteners afterward. That's fine, but it's not "efficient."
My transmission's bellhousing is like that. IIRC there are three different bolt sizes. It just means I have to change sockets twice while removing the bolts...
No, I'm talking about a cosmetic plastic cover that uses Phillips screws and TWO (2) different size Torx fasteners. One stupid cosmetic cover. No varying forces. Room is not a consideration. It's just silliness and seems to be designed to deter the average user from accessing what is underneath.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
By contrast, oil changes are easier and cleaner on my car than on my brother's eminently practical Honda.
No argument from me on that one.
The K-series Honda oil filter accessibility is so bad that Honda techs themselves were double gasketing oil filters and there were reports of several Element/CRV fires.
My Ford Duratec/Mazda MZIwrapped the front cylinder bank pre-cat around the filter. Get an "Ov-glove" or brand the back of your hand on the catalyst.
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Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Ibeg to differ. I replaced my car's clutch with the car on jack stands on a garage floor. There are numerous newer BMWs among my other friends and almost all of them similarly easy to work on.
Done that myself on an Eclipse. Not really an advanage for ze Deutsch.
Didn't say it was an advantage. Just disputing your claim that "most German cars" (whatever that means) are difficult to service.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I think it's safe to say you do not represent most of their customers.
What is that supposed to mean?
Most Mercedes buyers don't get their hands dirty with their cars. They drive to the shop, say "fix it," drive off with a loaner, and then come back a few days later with no real idea of what happened in the interim. As I understand, you are not that oblivious or disinterested. Correct me if I'm wrong.
It's not a good or bad thing, nor is it good or bad for someone like you -- who clearly DOES like to get his hands dirty -- to buy one. Just pointing it out.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
The Germans have no Zen. It is not a Teutonic concept.
Couldn't possibly disagree more. Most aspects of driving and maintaining my car have been quite Zen-like. Ditto every BMW owner among my friends and family.
The Mercedes and Volkswagen owners seem divided, but the experience isn't "mostly" negative as you suggest.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
No, I'm talking about a cosmetic plastic cover that uses Phillips screws and TWO (2) different size Torx fasteners. One stupid cosmetic cover. No varying forces. Room is not a consideration. It's just silliness and seems to be designed to deter the average user from accessing what is underneath.
Ah, okay. I have a couple of those on my car.
...If this is the kind of thing that bothers you, I really have nothing to say in response.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
The K-series Honda oil filter accessibility is so bad that Honda techs themselves were double gasketing oil filters and there were reports of several Element/CRV fires.
My Ford Duratec/Mazda MZIwrapped the front cylinder bank pre-cat around the filter. Get an "Ov-glove" or brand the back of your hand on the catalyst.
My brother has a B-series, but yeah, it's irritating.
...and meanwhile, most BMWs and Mercedeses I've seen have the filter housing right on top, at the front of the engine. Considering how basic and frequent an oil filter change is compared to a lot of the other maintenance items we've been discussing, I'd call that a win.
Again, I would never say German cars are easy to maintain. Some are, some aren't. Just saying that your blanket assertions are not accurate.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Ibeg to differ. I replaced my car's clutch with the car on jack stands on a garage floor. There are numerous newer BMWs among my other friends and almost all of them similarly easy to work on.
Done that myself on an Eclipse. Not really an advanage for ze Deutsch.
Didn't say it was an advantage. Just disputing your claim that "most German cars" (whatever that means) are difficult to service.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I think it's safe to say you do not represent most of their customers.
What is that supposed to mean?
Most Mercedes buyers don't get their hands dirty with their cars. They drive to the shop, say "fix it," drive off with a loaner, and then come back a few days later with no real idea of what happened in the interim. As I understand, you are not that oblivious or disinterested. Correct me if I'm wrong.
It's not a good or bad thing, nor is it good or bad for someone like you -- who clearly DOES like to get his hands dirty -- to buy one. Just pointing it out.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
The Germans have no Zen. It is not a Teutonic concept.
Couldn't possibly disagree more. Most aspects of driving and maintaining my car have been quite Zen-like. Ditto every BMW owner among my friends and family.
The Mercedes and Volkswagen owners seem divided, but the experience isn't "mostly" negative as you suggest.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
No, I'm talking about a cosmetic plastic cover that uses Phillips screws and TWO (2) different size Torx fasteners. One stupid cosmetic cover. No varying forces. Room is not a consideration. It's just silliness and seems to be designed to deter the average user from accessing what is underneath.
Ah, okay. I have a couple of those on my car.
...If this is the kind of thing that bothers you, I really have nothing to say in response.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
The K-series Honda oil filter accessibility is so bad that Honda techs themselves were double gasketing oil filters and there were reports of several Element/CRV fires.
My Ford Duratec/Mazda MZIwrapped the front cylinder bank pre-cat around the filter. Get an "Ov-glove" or brand the back of your hand on the catalyst.
My brother has a B-series, but yeah, it's irritating.
...and meanwhile, most BMWs and Mercedeses I've seen have the filter housing right on top, at the front of the engine. Considering how basic and frequent an oil filter change is compared to a lot of the other maintenance items we've been discussing, I'd call that a win.
Again, I would never say German cars are easy to maintain. Some are, some aren't. Just saying that your blanket assertions are not accurate.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
And if we as BITOGers buy cars that are designed for people who fail in all of the above, we shouldn't be surprised that they make life difficult for us.
And if we buy used we get even less input to the design.
Though it could be argued that resale value is important to the manufacturer, when *I* buy something used, it's not doing the PO any favors in that department.
And if we as BITOGers buy cars that are designed for people who fail in all of the above, we shouldn't be surprised that they make life difficult for us.
And if we buy used we get even less input to the design.
Though it could be argued that resale value is important to the manufacturer, when *I* buy something used, it's not doing the PO any favors in that department.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Quality is a plastic, that is well preserved so it doesn't get all brittle.
True, it hasn't been a problem with any car I've had since '93 TBH. But I have seen a fair share of plastics before that which suffered the 'weathered lawn chair' look.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi
. ... This definitely includes thoughtful engineers that greatly consider ease of servicing, and not just the ease of assembly! *cough*GM*cough*
Well, that pretty much eliminates most German cars from the definition of "quality"
They might as well have a "NO USER SERVICEABLE PARTS INSIDE" tag on the hood release.
Mercedes Benz doesn't even let you check your own transmission fluid level. There is just a cap that says "MB WORKSHOP ONLY" on the transmission dipstick tube.
" Oh nein, you are too ztupid to check ze fluid. "
Then there's the indecipherable pictograms on the controls. What does this one mean? Is that a Weber grill and a lightning bolt? Well I definitely don't want to push that button!
So they move everything to a screen in the center of the dash and give you a mouse-like control. Good idea except they think very little about navigating their interface and user friendliness. It's not very intuitive and generally a pain in the neck to use. ( neck is not the exact word I wanted to use but it will suffice instead of a [censored] .)
Then if you do decide to dive in you will find that they used 3 or 4 different sizes and styles of fasteners on one assembly. Completely unnecessary. For a nation that prides itself on efficiency in manufacturing it's a remarkably inefficient practice.
I thoroughly enjoyed reading that. It's not just contemporary German engineering afflicted with such irritants. Hate to do it, but back to GM- I did a coil pack on a Buick 3800. Wanna know what size bolt used is on them? Five-and-a-half millimeter. Not 6, not 5, 5.5. I was like "are you ****in' kidding me?!?" The 5.5mm must have been the last socket I tried and lucky I had it. *note: while I'm sure there was an imperial equivalent to the 5.5mm, there is no good reason for it to be that size period (or for the coils to fail so often). I'm a metric guy, and most other cars need the basics: 8mm, 10mm, 12mm, 14mm, 17mm, 19mm, 21mm and usually nothing else.
That MB transmission issue bothered me too. It's not like you can buy the dipstick and leave it in there either, it's a 'measuring tool' only. And it's only graded in mm, ie theres no F or E marks. It must be corresponded with fluid temperature which must be electronically read from the bus. What the wooden-hoot? And you cannot use a flat flexible steel rod either, the contortions make that impossible. It must be coiled to make several angles. I just used a piece of mower throttle cable, scored it to match the original cold fluid level and called it a day.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Besides, a lot of this stems from customer expectations and ignorance.
If we as a general public didn't demand useless junk, we wouldn't need kidney-shaped batteries and ridiculously complicated electronics.
for some reason I can't stop laughing at the "kidney-shaped battery". Of all the needless things to do! Of all the shapes to choose!
That whole iDrive/maint interface is ridiculous. I was driving my uncle's 330xi and was running through the menus, looking for oil level and drain interval. I don't know if i accidentally hit some reset button, but everything just said even KM numbers for full intervals like "10,000KM" oil , "25,000KM" brakes (or something to that effect). I know he didn't just have the car serviced. Either I screwed something up with a stray click, or the information offered were just useless values nromally found in the manual.
That nonsense is really just too much. I don't want to have to accept some EULA/disclaimer every time I drive my car either. Ironically, if you drive off before accepting, having to fumble around and click accept just to change radio stations is a hazard and distraction in and of itself. It begs only one question: WHY?! But I digress...
Quality is a plastic, that is well preserved so it doesn't get all brittle.
True, it hasn't been a problem with any car I've had since '93 TBH. But I have seen a fair share of plastics before that which suffered the 'weathered lawn chair' look.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi
. ... This definitely includes thoughtful engineers that greatly consider ease of servicing, and not just the ease of assembly! *cough*GM*cough*
Well, that pretty much eliminates most German cars from the definition of "quality"
They might as well have a "NO USER SERVICEABLE PARTS INSIDE" tag on the hood release.
Mercedes Benz doesn't even let you check your own transmission fluid level. There is just a cap that says "MB WORKSHOP ONLY" on the transmission dipstick tube.
" Oh nein, you are too ztupid to check ze fluid. "
Then there's the indecipherable pictograms on the controls. What does this one mean? Is that a Weber grill and a lightning bolt? Well I definitely don't want to push that button!
So they move everything to a screen in the center of the dash and give you a mouse-like control. Good idea except they think very little about navigating their interface and user friendliness. It's not very intuitive and generally a pain in the neck to use. ( neck is not the exact word I wanted to use but it will suffice instead of a [censored] .)
Then if you do decide to dive in you will find that they used 3 or 4 different sizes and styles of fasteners on one assembly. Completely unnecessary. For a nation that prides itself on efficiency in manufacturing it's a remarkably inefficient practice.
That MB transmission issue bothered me too. It's not like you can buy the dipstick and leave it in there either, it's a 'measuring tool' only. And it's only graded in mm, ie theres no F or E marks. It must be corresponded with fluid temperature which must be electronically read from the bus. What the wooden-hoot? And you cannot use a flat flexible steel rod either, the contortions make that impossible. It must be coiled to make several angles. I just used a piece of mower throttle cable, scored it to match the original cold fluid level and called it a day.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Besides, a lot of this stems from customer expectations and ignorance.
If we as a general public didn't demand useless junk, we wouldn't need kidney-shaped batteries and ridiculously complicated electronics.
That whole iDrive/maint interface is ridiculous. I was driving my uncle's 330xi and was running through the menus, looking for oil level and drain interval. I don't know if i accidentally hit some reset button, but everything just said even KM numbers for full intervals like "10,000KM" oil , "25,000KM" brakes (or something to that effect). I know he didn't just have the car serviced. Either I screwed something up with a stray click, or the information offered were just useless values nromally found in the manual.
Quote:
Couldn't possibly disagree more. Most aspects of driving and maintaining my car have been quite Zen-like. Ditto every BMW owner among my friends and family.
Okay, I'll concede that point. But it's the positive way the controls that make the car go, turn, and stop so well that make everything else doubly....ummmmm.....Darned-ing. (just doesn't sound right without being able to say [censored-ing]
Quote:
That whole iDrive/maint interface is ridiculous. I was driving my uncle's 330xi and was running through the menus, looking for oil level and drain interval. I don't know if i accidentally hit some reset button, but everything just said even KM numbers for full intervals like "10,000KM" oil , "25,000KM" brakes (or something to that effect). I know he didn't just have the car serviced. Either I screwed something up with a stray click, or the information offered were just useless values nromally found in the manual. That nonsense is really just too much. I don't want to have to accept some EULA/disclaimer every time I drive my car either. Ironically, if you drive off before accepting, having to fumble around and click accept just to change radio stations is a hazard and distraction in and of itself. It begs only one question: WHY?! But I digress...
Couldn't possibly disagree more. Most aspects of driving and maintaining my car have been quite Zen-like. Ditto every BMW owner among my friends and family.
Okay, I'll concede that point. But it's the positive way the controls that make the car go, turn, and stop so well that make everything else doubly....ummmmm.....Darned-ing. (just doesn't sound right without being able to say [censored-ing]
Quote:
That whole iDrive/maint interface is ridiculous. I was driving my uncle's 330xi and was running through the menus, looking for oil level and drain interval. I don't know if i accidentally hit some reset button, but everything just said even KM numbers for full intervals like "10,000KM" oil , "25,000KM" brakes (or something to that effect). I know he didn't just have the car serviced. Either I screwed something up with a stray click, or the information offered were just useless values nromally found in the manual. That nonsense is really just too much. I don't want to have to accept some EULA/disclaimer every time I drive my car either. Ironically, if you drive off before accepting, having to fumble around and click accept just to change radio stations is a hazard and distraction in and of itself. It begs only one question: WHY?! But I digress...
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Kestas
Staff member
If it helps anyone in the future, 7/32" = 5.56 mm and is hopefully not too big for the 5.5 mm bolt.
I keep a conversion list in my toolbox so I can more easily zoom in on the odd socket that I need.
inches - - mm
3/16 - - 4.76
7/32 - - 5.56
1/4 - - 6.35
9/32 - - 7.14
5/16 - - 7.94
11/32 - - 8.73
3/8 - - 9.53
7/16 - - 11.11
1/2 - - 12.7
9/16 - - 14.29
5/8 - - 15.88
11/16 - - 17.46
3/4 - - 19.05
13/16 - - 20.64
7/8 - - 22.23
15/16 - - 23.81
1 - - 25.4
I keep a conversion list in my toolbox so I can more easily zoom in on the odd socket that I need.
inches - - mm
3/16 - - 4.76
7/32 - - 5.56
1/4 - - 6.35
9/32 - - 7.14
5/16 - - 7.94
11/32 - - 8.73
3/8 - - 9.53
7/16 - - 11.11
1/2 - - 12.7
9/16 - - 14.29
5/8 - - 15.88
11/16 - - 17.46
3/4 - - 19.05
13/16 - - 20.64
7/8 - - 22.23
15/16 - - 23.81
1 - - 25.4
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Okay, I'll concede that point. But it's the positive way the controls that make the car go, turn, and stop so well that make everything else doubly....ummmmm.....Darned-ing. (just doesn't sound right without being able to say [censored-ing]
You caught that I said "driving and maintaining," right?
Like I said, maybe it's a BMW thing. Or maybe it's a pre-2006 BMW thing.
Okay, I'll concede that point. But it's the positive way the controls that make the car go, turn, and stop so well that make everything else doubly....ummmmm.....Darned-ing. (just doesn't sound right without being able to say [censored-ing]
You caught that I said "driving and maintaining," right?
Like I said, maybe it's a BMW thing. Or maybe it's a pre-2006 BMW thing.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi
. ... This definitely includes thoughtful engineers that greatly consider ease of servicing, and not just the ease of assembly! *cough*GM*cough*
Well, that pretty much eliminates most German cars from the definition of "quality"
I partially disagree. My experience with German cars is that they are actually MADE to be serviced, although the service procedures (like the cars themselves and German engineering in general) may be more complex than absolutely necessary. No matter what goes wrong on a German car, it can be fixed if you know the procedure, and it usually isn't as bad as you have been led to believe (in other words, there's a simple step here and another one there that make the whole job easier). As for your specific example of Benz transmissions not having a dipstick, well a) Toyotas don't either, and b) manual transmissions never have had dipsticks. Why is it so bad to pull a fill plug and stick your finger in the case on an automatic just like you do on a manual?
Japanese cars, on the other hand, aren't made to be serviced. The implicit assumption is that if something in the engine breaks, its OK if the first step to fixing it is "remove left taillight" and you have to work your way all the way forward from there.
American cars can be either. Most 80s American cars were a service disaster. The 90s were a pleasant surprise. Then I had to roll my eyes at the PT Cruiser service manual, which calls out "remove engine and transaxle" as step 1 in replacing a passenger's side motor mount.
But it's an extreme case of serviceability (or lack thereof) being dictated by styling. Not my thing, but the wife loves the car so....
Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi
. ... This definitely includes thoughtful engineers that greatly consider ease of servicing, and not just the ease of assembly! *cough*GM*cough*
Well, that pretty much eliminates most German cars from the definition of "quality"
I partially disagree. My experience with German cars is that they are actually MADE to be serviced, although the service procedures (like the cars themselves and German engineering in general) may be more complex than absolutely necessary. No matter what goes wrong on a German car, it can be fixed if you know the procedure, and it usually isn't as bad as you have been led to believe (in other words, there's a simple step here and another one there that make the whole job easier). As for your specific example of Benz transmissions not having a dipstick, well a) Toyotas don't either, and b) manual transmissions never have had dipsticks. Why is it so bad to pull a fill plug and stick your finger in the case on an automatic just like you do on a manual?
Japanese cars, on the other hand, aren't made to be serviced. The implicit assumption is that if something in the engine breaks, its OK if the first step to fixing it is "remove left taillight" and you have to work your way all the way forward from there.
American cars can be either. Most 80s American cars were a service disaster. The 90s were a pleasant surprise. Then I had to roll my eyes at the PT Cruiser service manual, which calls out "remove engine and transaxle" as step 1 in replacing a passenger's side motor mount.
But it's an extreme case of serviceability (or lack thereof) being dictated by styling. Not my thing, but the wife loves the car so....
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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi
. ... This definitely includes thoughtful engineers that greatly consider ease of servicing, and not just the ease of assembly! *cough*GM*cough*
Well, that pretty much eliminates most German cars from the definition of "quality"
I partially disagree. My experience with German cars is that they are actually MADE to be serviced, although the service procedures (like the cars themselves and German engineering in general) may be more complex than absolutely necessary. No matter what goes wrong on a German car, it can be fixed if you know the procedure, and it usually isn't as bad as you have been led to believe (in other words, there's a simple step here and another one there that make the whole job easier). As for your specific example of Benz transmissions not having a dipstick, well a) Toyotas don't either, and b) manual transmissions never have had dipsticks. Why is it so bad to pull a fill plug and stick your finger in the case on an automatic just like you do on a manual?
It depends on the model. For example, air filter change takes less than a minute on my Z4. Air filter change on wife's Audi A6 can take up to an hour and still leave a chance to screw up by not connecting the tubes all the way (as was done by the dealer at a previous service).
But oil changes are a breeze on both.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi
. ... This definitely includes thoughtful engineers that greatly consider ease of servicing, and not just the ease of assembly! *cough*GM*cough*
Well, that pretty much eliminates most German cars from the definition of "quality"
I partially disagree. My experience with German cars is that they are actually MADE to be serviced, although the service procedures (like the cars themselves and German engineering in general) may be more complex than absolutely necessary. No matter what goes wrong on a German car, it can be fixed if you know the procedure, and it usually isn't as bad as you have been led to believe (in other words, there's a simple step here and another one there that make the whole job easier). As for your specific example of Benz transmissions not having a dipstick, well a) Toyotas don't either, and b) manual transmissions never have had dipsticks. Why is it so bad to pull a fill plug and stick your finger in the case on an automatic just like you do on a manual?
It depends on the model. For example, air filter change takes less than a minute on my Z4. Air filter change on wife's Audi A6 can take up to an hour and still leave a chance to screw up by not connecting the tubes all the way (as was done by the dealer at a previous service).
But oil changes are a breeze on both.
I disagree.
The A,B,D,F,G,and H-series Honda motors are quite a bit easier to perform typical services on than your average German car. Even with the oil filter mounted high on the back of the block. Simple maintenace like distributor cap and rotor, valve adjustments, cleaning the throttle body is as simple and straightforward as any other manufacturer.
Mitsubishis typically have the filter mounted in a better location for access (worse for smacking it on speedbumps)
The GM T-body cars (Chevette/T1000)were derived from the Opel Kadette C. You want to change the distributor cap? Take out the A/C compressor. Need to replace the starter? Take out the steering column or the off the intake manifold...your choice. I think I would rather do two Honda D-series transverse timing belts than one Chevette timing belt.
By comparison, Toyota's 2T L4 and 3K Slant 4 OHV engines from that period are very maintenance friendly.
From a mobile electronics installer's point of view, once you get past BMW's weird multi-fastener cosmetics, the wiring is suprisingly normal. I can figure out a BMW pretty quick.
Mercedes Benz is time consuming but at least they are consistant. They use the same color purple starter wire under the hood that GM uses. Volkswagen and Audi are a different story. Big live metal posts hang down uninsulated by the driver's feet and the plastics are often suprisingly brittle. They also use that odd multi-fastener system. Underhood access, to be blunt, creates negative pressure with it's mouth.
The only thing worse is the English who still think that + makes a good "earth". Everyone else on the planet knows that + means positive.
The A,B,D,F,G,and H-series Honda motors are quite a bit easier to perform typical services on than your average German car. Even with the oil filter mounted high on the back of the block. Simple maintenace like distributor cap and rotor, valve adjustments, cleaning the throttle body is as simple and straightforward as any other manufacturer.
Mitsubishis typically have the filter mounted in a better location for access (worse for smacking it on speedbumps)
The GM T-body cars (Chevette/T1000)were derived from the Opel Kadette C. You want to change the distributor cap? Take out the A/C compressor. Need to replace the starter? Take out the steering column or the off the intake manifold...your choice. I think I would rather do two Honda D-series transverse timing belts than one Chevette timing belt.
By comparison, Toyota's 2T L4 and 3K Slant 4 OHV engines from that period are very maintenance friendly.
From a mobile electronics installer's point of view, once you get past BMW's weird multi-fastener cosmetics, the wiring is suprisingly normal. I can figure out a BMW pretty quick.
Mercedes Benz is time consuming but at least they are consistant. They use the same color purple starter wire under the hood that GM uses. Volkswagen and Audi are a different story. Big live metal posts hang down uninsulated by the driver's feet and the plastics are often suprisingly brittle. They also use that odd multi-fastener system. Underhood access, to be blunt, creates negative pressure with it's mouth.
The only thing worse is the English who still think that + makes a good "earth". Everyone else on the planet knows that + means positive.
I think I'd define quality in terms of the following:
1. Well designed. The vehicle's designed in such a way that the vehicle and the parts that it's comprised of are appropriate for the job at hand, and for the intended users. (i.e. fleet vehicles can be designed with different maintenance priorities than private owners)
2. Quality materials. The parts are made from the proper materials for the job at hand- i.e. you don't make your frame from cast-iron any more than you make brake rotors from high speed steel.
3. Proper manufacturing. The vehicle and parts should not fail due to improper or slipshod installation. Ideally, statistical quality methods should be used to ensure that variation between vehicles is minimal.
In other words, a quality car is one that's designed well, built of good parts and put together well.
I think that many of the issues listed here are more design issues than what's typically thought of as "quality", but all 3 fit together to give you a quality vehicle- you can take the best design in the world and make it with shoddy parts in some crudhole like Iran, and you'll still have a low quality vehicle.
1. Well designed. The vehicle's designed in such a way that the vehicle and the parts that it's comprised of are appropriate for the job at hand, and for the intended users. (i.e. fleet vehicles can be designed with different maintenance priorities than private owners)
2. Quality materials. The parts are made from the proper materials for the job at hand- i.e. you don't make your frame from cast-iron any more than you make brake rotors from high speed steel.
3. Proper manufacturing. The vehicle and parts should not fail due to improper or slipshod installation. Ideally, statistical quality methods should be used to ensure that variation between vehicles is minimal.
In other words, a quality car is one that's designed well, built of good parts and put together well.
I think that many of the issues listed here are more design issues than what's typically thought of as "quality", but all 3 fit together to give you a quality vehicle- you can take the best design in the world and make it with shoddy parts in some crudhole like Iran, and you'll still have a low quality vehicle.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
like distributor cap and rotor, valve adjustments
Are things not found on most modern vehicles.
Quote:
From a mobile electronics installer's point of view, once you get past BMW's weird multi-fastener cosmetics, the wiring is suprisingly normal. I can figure out a BMW pretty quick.
Ever looked at the wiring diagram for the main relay on a Honda?
I hope the wiring in the rest of the car isn't that weird.
like distributor cap and rotor, valve adjustments
Are things not found on most modern vehicles.
Quote:
From a mobile electronics installer's point of view, once you get past BMW's weird multi-fastener cosmetics, the wiring is suprisingly normal. I can figure out a BMW pretty quick.
Ever looked at the wiring diagram for the main relay on a Honda?
I hope the wiring in the rest of the car isn't that weird.
ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2025
I was going to say all my GM stuff is really easy to service. The hardest thing I have had to do on the Trans Am is the rear valves springs when I replaced the Cam.
The Buick and Equinox are simple as can be and the truck. I can crawl around in that engine bay.
The Buick and Equinox are simple as can be and the truck. I can crawl around in that engine bay.
Somewhere there's a chart of wire colors and functions for Ford vehicles--and they are consistent, to the point that the wire colors for the power locks on a '97 Crown Vic are the same as they are for an '88 Mustang GT.
^^^^^^That's about as good as I could have said.
Well done.
Well done.
To me, quality means high reliability, good functional design, and good "fit and finish". It's a car where you can tell they spent a lot of time designing and testing it.
I used to have a Chevy that was reliable but I wouldn't say it was a quality vehicle because its fit & finish were mediocre.
Our family used to have a Benz that had nice fit & finish but it wasn't reliable, so I don't consider it a quality vehicle either.
I used to have a Chevy that was reliable but I wouldn't say it was a quality vehicle because its fit & finish were mediocre.
Our family used to have a Benz that had nice fit & finish but it wasn't reliable, so I don't consider it a quality vehicle either.
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