What a remarkable lack of intelligence

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What a remarkable lack of intelligence there is available to us regarding oil filters.

I recently installed an oil filter, make and model of which I haven’t used before. My decision was based on the reputation of the manufacturer, advertising, frequency of use amongst those in populations such as frequent these pages, recommendations, and other anecdotal evidence of quality of construction and function.

Since then, I searched this forum on the name of the manufacturer, to find references that would validate my choice. There were plenty of hits, but what I learned was anything but satisfying. Not that the filter that I selected was generally or universally panned, but that the threads and comments and digressions indicated that we really don’t know much at all about any particular one of this component of our vehicular oiling systems.

What I mean to say is that there is wide and considerable diversity of opinion and knowledge about these devices: what they can and cannot do, their performance and longevity, their construction, design specifications, price, availability, and other attributes. One thing is clear, however: the manufacturers are, in general, not terribly forthcoming with those data that would truly benefit those who are interested and engaged enough to wish to make informed decisions as to which filter is best for any one particular driving style or vehicular application.

The set of posts that were returned in my search included descriptions of experiences and statements of opinions that ran the gamut.

o One person stated that because a particular manufacturer makes a certain model filter that is considered low end, that all of the products from that factory are such. This, despite the fact that that manufacturer also makes two of the expensive, top of the line filters—at least as far as they are generally regarded by buyers hemisphere-wide.

o I read diametrically opposed opinions as to why a particular effect on oil pressure occurred following installation of a certain filter in a standard application. Both reasonable and entirely plausible.

o Brands and models can, it seems, suck and be perfectly adequate at the same time.

o Even BOBISTHEOILGUY himself weighed in on one thread with the suggestion, reasonably supported by photo evidence and with reference to analyses, that perhaps it’s really only flow that matters after all, that filtration of particulates is a secondary concern of far lesser importance.

o Angels dance on the heads of pins. This many microns is sufficient; no, gotta tighten it up. This flow is good; no, not good enough. Silicone is fine; no, nitrile it must be. A filter, when removed from the block, won’t drain the oil left trapped inside. This is bad, media’s clogged; no, good—means it has good capture

We don’t know too much at all, it appears. For most, if not all filters, we don’t know actual flow rates of oils. Those manufacturers that do provide data don’t typically tell us the particular weights of oils used to measure those rates, and at what temperature and pressure. We don’t know the true composition of many of the media used. Information about filtration efficiencies is often fuzzy. We don’t know the design specs for numbers of engine start cycles. I'm not aware that we have certified, unbiased testing data on the performance of any of the filters that are most regularly discussed here. We've seen evidence of construction quality and defects, but it's one thing to cut open a filter and attempt to determine how well it's made. It's quite another to know how well it actually performs. Even the idea of what constitutes performance itself is debated.

What’s a poor motorist to do? We can debate the minutiae of the facts of the oils we use based on analyses, MSDS and product specification data, certification requirements, and other facts. But when it comes to the filters that we use, it is decidedly an unsatisfactory state of affairs. It is an enjoyable intellectual exercise to discuss the subject here in these pages, but I, and, I expect others, typically come away wanting. By and large, we’re left to our own devices in the end—anecdote, brand loyalty, prejudice, habit, price.

It all makes for good and entertaining reading. I’m glad to be here just the same. I sure wish I could know whether I made a good choice, though, before it’s too late.
 
I don't believe any of us have said we know what the ideal filter is. That's what makes this forum so good. The filter manufacturers are not going to share their test data that does not clearly support their product. Here the conventional wisdom (filtration efficiency) can butt heads with new ideas (flow rate) and throw in wild cards like pressure drop.
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There probably is no perfect filter like there is no one perfect oil. We can probably determine a few top performers in each category and come up with the best suggestions for a specific application.
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BTW: The content of your post is very good. Excellent question. But I do have to take issue with the title of the post. Even intelligent opinions can differ, sometimes greatly.

[ January 27, 2003, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: mormit ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by metroplex:
just buy the cheapest least expensive filter and change it every 3k. fuggedabout it

Easier said than done though. Some of us want to extend the intervals much longer, especially if we're changing oil for other people in our family. So then we want a filter that can go a bit longer without us worrying that it's antidrainback will stop working effectively for instance.

I do agree, we have very little real tangible evidence on how effective some filters are. In a lot of cases we're just making a leap of faith.
 
How long has this board been open? Less than a year. You have no idea how much time I spent searching for a resource like this prior to its opening. We have not got everything down pat in this short time but we are working on it and with the "peer review" available on this board we will work toward a logical consensus. Blessed be Bob!
 
By the term "intelligence" I do not mean the capacity of any one person to know, nor is this reference to the faculty of understanding. This is not personal.

I am referring to knowledge itself or information that can be communicated, as in the term, "military intelligence", for example.
 
YZF,

Excellent points, but the folks who don't know this are the ones with the info. Many of us have attempted to get info from the manufacturers, but, as you pointed out, it's met with little tangible results. Since you've put a LOT of effort into these observations already, why not forward them on to the manufacturers? I know we would all appreciate any extra help in getting some info from them.

Wanna help?
 
Amsoil filters are adverstised as 6 months or 12,500 miles. Based upon what I have observed on a few boards these filters are no better then other top of the line filters so IMO most good filters can easily go 10-15,000 miles without any problems (assuming the drainback valves continue to function etc) In fact, I have yet to see any proof that under regular usage (no cleaning agents used in the oil) a filter will go into bypass from accumulating too much dirt or wear metals. I personally don't think this will happen. Filters may have been a great idea years ago when engine manufacturing and oil were not of the current quality but now, I really am leaning towards filters being pretty much useless during the average oil change interval, even extended. They "DON'T DO ANYTHING WORTHWHILE"

I do hope that someone can offer "proof" that filters make a difference in the life of an engine today and extend that life from 100,000 miles to 300,000. I feel it is strictly the oil doing the work and filters are mostly useless appendages!

Can we find someone who can volunteer an engine to run without a filter and compare the before and after results of oil analysis with same oil,similar mileage conditions etc., not a new engine, at least 25,000 miles on it.

[ January 27, 2003, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: Spector ]
 
Well lets see Pat - how long do you want to use a K&N filter?
10k miles?

Say the $2 supertech lasts for 3000 miles.

I'd need to change just the oil filter roughly 3 times.
that's $6 spent in changing the filters.
Plus you get a chance to swap out the filter and see what kind of oil comes out. Dipstick oil and drained oil look quite different sometimes.
 
YZF150: Aren't oil filters the least of your worries in your location? How do you even get a car to run way up there.
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quote:

Originally posted by YZF150:
By the term "intelligence" I do not mean the capacity of any one person to know, nor is this reference to the faculty of understanding. This is not personal.

I am referring to knowledge itself or information that can be communicated, as in the term, "military intelligence", for example.


What we're doing here is indeed attempting to gather intelligence on filters. A lot of our so called data may indeed be anecdotal experiences but most support their opinions with hard evidence in the form of oil analysis.

For what it's worth, I use a good quality mid-range filter (Mann, Wix, or Bosch). Not gonna break the bank with >$10 Mobil 1's because I haven't seen amazingly low wear analysis to justify the extra cost. Not gonna use a cheapo Fram or Walmart special. I like my cars too much to do that.
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[ January 27, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: mormit ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by metroplex:
Well lets see Pat - how long do you want to use a K&N filter?
10k miles?

Say the $2 supertech lasts for 3000 miles.

I'd need to change just the oil filter roughly 3 times.
that's $6 spent in changing the filters.
Plus you get a chance to swap out the filter and see what kind of oil comes out. Dipstick oil and drained oil look quite different sometimes.


In my car I'll probably leave it on for about 12k at the max. I hate changing the filter on my Firebird, it's way under the car so it's awkward to get at (it would be super easy if I had a hoist though)

During the time I have it on the car I'll be taking periodic samples of the oil for analysis anyways, so I can check the oil condition better that way.
 
I've got it all figured out now!
The manufacturer sets the specs with their OEM filter. I must catch particles larger than their clearances so not to cause wear. All the other small stuff that makes the oil black are too small and pass thru the filter. It stays suspended in the oil, and the oil gets blacker and blacker as the suspended particles accumulated which still will not harm the engine if the TBN of the oil is in the safe range. So for me the OEM Delco oil filter is the perfect one for my Chevy. I wouldn't trust high flow ones for wear though. The small micron ones are an overkill and a waste of money. That's my conclusion!

Leo
 
Call it "lack of intelligence" or whatever, but I know when I cut open a filter and it's got cardboard endcaps where other companies use metal, and the bypass valve is plastic, where other companies use metal, and the paper is visably thinner and has less pleats than the other filters I've cut open, IT AIN'T GOING ON MY CAR. Period.

My first hand "lack of intelligence" tells me Fram filters are crap. End of story.
 
When I met my ex-wife in 1970, she was driving between Vista and Los Angeles California weekly in a decade-old Volkswagen. NO oil filter - just a screen. 185,000 miles. No Group II or Group III oils, either. Just ol' Pep Boys SB or SC detergent motor oil in paper "cans". (Gawd, how I don't miss those!) Five years later, we decided to sell the "Beely" (225,000 miles by then). I'm not saying we should return to those halcyon days of lubricant technology, and I realize engines are more highly tuned than veedub's ~36 Hp. "wunder gefahrtzen motoren". Just pointing out that we may be obsessing about filtration. Me? I use SuperTechs because they're cheap, apparently well made, reliable so far, cheap, plentiful, and generally well thought of here. Oh, sorry, did I forget to mention, "cheap"? Of course, I change my oil and filter religiously every 3,000 miles (lifelong feel-good habit that I'll probably never shake... goes back to helping my dad as an otherwise wayward youth), so it's not cost-effective for me to worry about every niggling micron over the course of, say, 12,000 miles. YZF150, if you're a "poor motorist" wondering "what to do", consider your driving habits. If you're not looking to maximize change intervals, there're always the OEM filters. Hard for the manufacturer to argue with that choice in the event you submit a warranty claim. So, folks, end of discussion? Not hardly. Just one guy's opinion and y'all know what they say about opinions... Just like butts - everybody has one.

-Ray Haeffele
 
quote:

Originally posted by YZF150:
I sure wish I could know whether I made a good choice, though, before it’s too late.

Ahh grasshopper, but you can find out what a good choice is before its too late. The ancient secret is Oil analysis--This usefull tool will let you know if your filter is working correctly or not. If done on a continual basis you will know exact how your engine is wearing, and then determine a plan of action to reduce that wear!!!

As I have said before, if you really cared about filtration, by-pass filteration is the key to removing those wear causing particles.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Ray H:
When I met my ex-wife in 1970, she was driving between Vista and Los Angeles California weekly in a decade-old Volkswagen. NO oil filter - just a screen.... 185,000 miles. No Group II or Group III oils, either. Just ol' Pep Boys SB or SC detergent motor oil in paper "cans". (Gawd, how I don't miss those!) Five years later, we decided to sell the "Beely" (225,000 miles by then)...

I was wondering when someone would bring up the old VW oil "filter". Very interesting point there. My wife's vee dubs were named "Fritz" and "Ralph". Why do they name their cars?
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Yeah, I miss the old cans too.
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In a lot of cases we're just making a leap of faith.

That is exactly right and is the intention of my thesis. We want hard facts and stats and specs to compare, being the good scientists that we are, but we just don’t have the quality data that we require.

I feel it is strictly the oil doing the work and filters are mostly useless appendages!

Another conclusion in support of BOBISTHEOILGUY’s speculation after running a low-end filter and finding good wear results upon analysis.

A lot of our so called data may indeed be anecdotal experiences

We should be careful not to confuse an anecdote with fact. They may prove to be congruent, and perhaps even ultimately equivalent. Sorting through the anecdotes to determine this, however, would be made considerably easier if we had the filter of hard data with which to parse them. (Pardon the inadvertent pun.)

most support their opinions with hard evidence in the form of oil analysis

But if the filter is superfluous, as has been suggested, then all we’re doing is monitoring the performance of the oil under the conditions in which it was used.

My first hand "lack of intelligence" tells me Fram filters are crap.

What we find inside a poorly made device is indeed intelligence. We just need more of it regarding all of the others.

Ahh grasshopper, but you can find out what a good choice is before its too late. The ancient secret is Oil analysis

Not a secret, not ancient, and not necessarily true, as many analyses have shown. Similar wear results can obtain from a variety of filters. This can mean that the oils are performing similarly in conjunction with the performance of the filters; or, the oils are performing similarly regardless of the performance of the filters; or, the filters are performing similarly regardless of the performance of the oils.

More (data) please, Sir.

==================================================

The thoughtful, wry, and clever responses of the members here are truly evidence that intelligent life inhabits this board.

[ January 27, 2003, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: YZF150 ]
 
Well if you really want to lie awake at night, consider the fact your snow thrower doesn't have an oil filter nor an air filter.

I guess the theory is that there isn't any dirt or bugs in the air when you're cleaning up snow. And the 50-hour change interval is relatively short.

I like using synthetic in my snow thrower because it doesn't smoke
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*** Here's another thing to think about:

Saturns put spin-on fluid filters on their transmissions as a sales gimmick. "Hey look, our cars give you a transmission filter while all the other manufacturers want to see you come back needing service."
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[ January 27, 2003, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by S2000driver:
Well if you really want to lie awake at night, consider the fact your snow thrower doesn't have an oil filter nor an air filter.

I guess the theory is that there isn't any dirt or bugs in the air when you're cleaning up snow. And the 50-hour change interval is relatively short.

I like using synthetic in my snow thrower because it doesn't smoke
wink.gif


*** Here's another thing to think about:

Saturns put spin-on fluid filters on their transmissions as a sales gimmick. "Hey look, our cars give you a transmission filter while all the other manufacturers want to see you come back needing service."
rolleyes.gif


My 1968 BMW R60US motorcycle also did not have an oil filter. It had a centrifugal type of system that flung the dirt to one side, and then took the clean oil.
I am gussing Saturns may not have a inside the oil pan oil filter. It must then also have a drain plug which is lacking on some cars. Wish I had that on my car.

Leo
 
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