since ethanol (10%) has been put in gas, have there been instances of water seperating out? How long will that take? If the car is just parked? 2 weeks/ more??
water coming out of ethanol gas
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It appears that ethanol is hygroscopic. I've read somewhere that it's not water separating out of E10, but rather water being absorbed by the ethanol from the water vapor from the air.
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Kestas
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Temperature is also involved. The ethanol portion of the fuel will absorb more water with increasing temperature. Once you've saturated the fuel at prolonged exposure to air at warm temperatures, cooling the fuel will cause the water to separate (or precipitate out of solution).
I don't know how long that would take. I believe the problem is prevalent with boats stored at marinas. One fix would be to make sure the fuel is hermetically sealed during storage.
I don't know how long that would take. I believe the problem is prevalent with boats stored at marinas. One fix would be to make sure the fuel is hermetically sealed during storage.
Reason I asked is that I found water in the boats fuel filter for the first time this year. wonder what happens to cars
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Temperature is also involved. The ethanol portion of the fuel will absorb more water with increasing temperature. Once you've saturated the fuel at prolonged exposure to air at warm temperatures, cooling the fuel will cause the water to separate (or precipitate out of solution).
I don't know how long that would take. I believe the problem is prevalent with boats stored at marinas. One fix would be to make sure the fuel is hermetically sealed during storage.
My education on this is a slightly different version. My workplace switched to E 10 last fall and we "scrubbed" our bulk tank and installed phase separation detecting filters. The guy at Champion filters stated:
"E-10 can hold a maximum of 0.5% water up to 60 degrees F. Above that, it will phase separate. In ground storage at 54 degrees could hold the 0.5%, but when it warms up in a vehicle, could phase separate there."
In a nutshell, I believe most E10 problems can be avoided by changing/managing your use and storage habits.
Temperature is also involved. The ethanol portion of the fuel will absorb more water with increasing temperature. Once you've saturated the fuel at prolonged exposure to air at warm temperatures, cooling the fuel will cause the water to separate (or precipitate out of solution).
I don't know how long that would take. I believe the problem is prevalent with boats stored at marinas. One fix would be to make sure the fuel is hermetically sealed during storage.
My education on this is a slightly different version. My workplace switched to E 10 last fall and we "scrubbed" our bulk tank and installed phase separation detecting filters. The guy at Champion filters stated:
"E-10 can hold a maximum of 0.5% water up to 60 degrees F. Above that, it will phase separate. In ground storage at 54 degrees could hold the 0.5%, but when it warms up in a vehicle, could phase separate there."
In a nutshell, I believe most E10 problems can be avoided by changing/managing your use and storage habits.
Kestas
Staff member
Actually, it's a linear relationship of volume fraction water versus temperature. What your guy said is not quite accurate. Phase separation will not occur when the fuel warms up from ground storage to the vehicle temperature. It needs to be at elevated temperature for prolonged time in the presence of humidity, then cooled for phase separation to occur. It can only occur when the temperature drops from warm to cold. Here's some detail on the subject:
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf
Originally Posted By: Kestas
What your guy said is not quite accurate.
"Not quite" is being very polite.
Thank you for correcting bad information given to me by someone claiming to be an expert. This guy talked as if he was "higher up" the food chain at Champion Filters than the regular phone tech. support we normally get.
What your guy said is not quite accurate.
"Not quite" is being very polite.
Thank you for correcting bad information given to me by someone claiming to be an expert. This guy talked as if he was "higher up" the food chain at Champion Filters than the regular phone tech. support we normally get.
It sure has happened to me this year in everything I own.
(NC does not require posting ethanol content)
So now I have to test everything, particularly what goes in my toys and lawn equipment, as the problems can be way worse there.
I fill a small measuring bottle or drink bottle to the first line with water. Then I add gas and shake it up, which also shows me a little about oxygenation...
I let it settle out, and if the water level increases above the line.
Well then you know.
This is what came out of one of my ATV tanks into a 2 liter bottle.
So you can see why I am so proactive about it....
(NC does not require posting ethanol content)
So now I have to test everything, particularly what goes in my toys and lawn equipment, as the problems can be way worse there.
I fill a small measuring bottle or drink bottle to the first line with water. Then I add gas and shake it up, which also shows me a little about oxygenation...
I let it settle out, and if the water level increases above the line.
Well then you know.
This is what came out of one of my ATV tanks into a 2 liter bottle.
So you can see why I am so proactive about it....
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Use Marine Stabil (blue) and never worry. It prevents water seperation from E10 fuel.
Originally Posted By: Kestas
I believe the problem is prevalent with boats stored at marinas. One fix would be to make sure the fuel is hermetically sealed during storage.
Not possible with inside stored boats. First, USCG regulations require all marine fuel tanks to be vented with over board overflow vents. Plus if you should store with tanks 90-95% full to pervent condensation build up with the 5-10% allwance for fuel expansion. Some people recommend completely draining fuel systems but he answer I have found is a 1.5 normal dose of Marine Stabil which prevents E10 fuel seperation from occuring. Works like a charm and is cost effective.
I believe the problem is prevalent with boats stored at marinas. One fix would be to make sure the fuel is hermetically sealed during storage.
Not possible with inside stored boats. First, USCG regulations require all marine fuel tanks to be vented with over board overflow vents. Plus if you should store with tanks 90-95% full to pervent condensation build up with the 5-10% allwance for fuel expansion. Some people recommend completely draining fuel systems but he answer I have found is a 1.5 normal dose of Marine Stabil which prevents E10 fuel seperation from occuring. Works like a charm and is cost effective.
I use Stabil in my gas frequently, it also will clean ur throttle body and injectors. Look Stabil up on the internet, quite a read on there about boats and how ethanol is eating up fuel lines on boats. My van was running rough, dying at idle, and while on the roads, sputtering, and all,,I put in Stabil and all that stopped overnite.
First: water in boat gas is quite common. Despite various protective strategies, the vents are outside the boat and spray, large waves, heeling in a corner, etc some water can go in the vent. In a watershow act called "skiaround" (skiers ski all the way around the boat) the driver tosses the boat from side to side violently to make this happen. At one time I put a separator tank in the vent line, and found I was putting about a qt a day into the tank. Eventually I moved the vent to the front deck of the boat.... better but water is possible. Outboards chuff and chug but amazingly still run. Isopropyl alcohol in the fuel soon clears it up.
Phase seperation: Occasionally happens with E10, often in winter when the water fraction becomes to great. Our local BP station had a tank go bad, many cars were disabled within a mile or two after filling.... including a brand new Toyota being filled by the dealer for the first time.
BP admitted that it happened there, (heck, people who had filled together found themselves stalled together) but there was a legal battle between the gas station and the terminal over who had caused the incident. It was in the paper here for weeks, the car owners had to tow, drain and repair their cars themselves while waiting for a decision on who would pay.
Storage: The NMMA (National Marine Manufacturers Association) has recommended E10 not be used for storage, when possible. Ethanol is conductive and greatly increases corrosion in the gas tanks. Car tanks have long since been upgraded to triple nickel plating and other things to help prevent this, many boats are not.... and are often older model years anyway.
OK, ski arounds: If you go to a professional waterski show you will certainly see someone do it. If you come to our watershows, you will see 7 people go around my boat all at one time. (the world record established in tournaments, is 8 around)
This trick also puts lots of water in the boat, and my blonde ropehandler becomes very wet, but decidedly more scenic!!
Phase seperation: Occasionally happens with E10, often in winter when the water fraction becomes to great. Our local BP station had a tank go bad, many cars were disabled within a mile or two after filling.... including a brand new Toyota being filled by the dealer for the first time.
BP admitted that it happened there, (heck, people who had filled together found themselves stalled together) but there was a legal battle between the gas station and the terminal over who had caused the incident. It was in the paper here for weeks, the car owners had to tow, drain and repair their cars themselves while waiting for a decision on who would pay.
Storage: The NMMA (National Marine Manufacturers Association) has recommended E10 not be used for storage, when possible. Ethanol is conductive and greatly increases corrosion in the gas tanks. Car tanks have long since been upgraded to triple nickel plating and other things to help prevent this, many boats are not.... and are often older model years anyway.
OK, ski arounds: If you go to a professional waterski show you will certainly see someone do it. If you come to our watershows, you will see 7 people go around my boat all at one time. (the world record established in tournaments, is 8 around)
This trick also puts lots of water in the boat, and my blonde ropehandler becomes very wet, but decidedly more scenic!!
You MUST post pics .....
OK, I have pic's of the 360 part, online!
www.5sst.com
then click on "showskiing acts"
Then click on "360 around the boat"
Oh, maybe you wanted a picture of the wet blonde ropehandler??
First, send proof that you are 18 or older, and a doctors certification that your heart is ok!! LOL
www.5sst.com
then click on "showskiing acts"
Then click on "360 around the boat"
Oh, maybe you wanted a picture of the wet blonde ropehandler??
First, send proof that you are 18 or older, and a doctors certification that your heart is ok!! LOL
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