Want to know what sort of people we are dealing with?

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Many people in the Middle East need look no further then their own governments for their problems. And it is not the responsibility of the United States to try to lift up the rest of the entire world.

Take a look at Saudi Arabia. That is one rich country. Any excuse for people living in poverty in Saudi Arabia? ABSOLUTELY NOT! And it is not the fault of the United States, either.

For that matter, take Iraq. Iraq has huge oil reserves. Iraq should be at least a moderately wealthy country. Saddam Hussein, his sons, and the people of his regime ripped off the country, and paid huge brides to leaders in other countries. Don't think so? Take a look at his numerous palaces, some of which he hardly even lived in or visited.

Take the Sudan. There are huge reserves of oil there. If the Moslems could stop trying to kill and enslave all of the Christians, and they practiced a little capitalism there, Sudan could probably be at least a moderately wealthy country also.

Don't point the finger at the US. Point the finger at the corrupt governments and all of the silly racism and religious fanaticism of the countries in that area.
 
Israel is just a handy excuse-an excuse to keep the people from thinking about their own corrupt governments.

Do you know what the Middle East needs? A little bit of capitalism. Many countries in that area possess oil wealth.

If they got rid of the corrupt governments and practiced a little capitalism, many of these countries have enough oil wealth to make Israel look like a Third World Nation. Think about it.
 
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Many people in the Middle East need look no further then their own governments for their problems.

Governments that the west formed and support? The current map of the middle east was formed by the British. It was designed to be chaotic.. To forever eliminate the threat that the ME could represent as a united people.
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Take a look at Saudi Arabia. That is one rich country. Any excuse for people living in poverty in Saudi Arabia? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

You're right! Guess who maintains the House of Saud in power? Us ..we ..to prevent a potential nationalist uprising ...prop up the House of Saud ..assuring that they will be able to raid the nation of much of its loot. All the while we play Pontius Pilate on the well being of their people. We've exchanged the "right" approach for the "necessary" approach to most of the oil producing nations in the ME. The rest? Give their corrupt leaders just enough to keep them happy ..and let the camel jockeys rot.

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And it is not the responsibility of the United States to try to lift up the rest of the entire world.

Well, I don't necessarily agree with that assertion.

If you somehow expect to "lead" the planet into the future and have it formed to your design, no aspect of its formation is outside of your responsibility.

That is, if you leave 1/2 the planet out of the loop, for whatever reason ..you ARE going to deal with the consequences. Many of which have just come to your attention since 9/11. Happy and productive people don't fight jihads (like Germany and Japan did at one time).

The chickens have come home to roost, so to speak.
 
There is no way that 300 million people in the USA should or could support the other 5.7 billion of the Earth's human population. Somebody else has to do some lifting. We have our own poor people in this country.

The USA was not responsible for the colonialism, imperialism, etc., in the Middle East, Africa, etc. Outside of the USA, the United States has engaged in relatively little in the way of colonialism. You can look mostly to Europe, especially Western Europe, for the colonialism, imperialism, etc. And that happened in a different age. We think differently today.

We have to deal with the present and the future. Worrying about who is to blame for the current design of the Iraqi country is silly (it was the British, by the way).

Many of these countries in the Middle East have the resources (such as crude oil and natural gas) to be at least moderately wealthy countries. If the people in this area of the world want real change, they better make some changes in their governments first. Those are the ones who are oppressing them.

There is a golden opportunity for the Iraqi people to have a democratic country. They better choose that way. If they don't, then they can live with some Mullah telling them how to live their lives. Pretty easy choice.
 
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There is no way that 300 million people in the USA should or could support the other 5.7 billion of the Earth's human population.

No ..you're half right. We only support the advanced industrial nations that we built and fostered. NAME ONE advanced industrial nation that the USA hasn't basically "built" since WWII!! Just ONE. Of all those advanced industrial nations ....who is their #1 trading partner????

Who is going to bring down "The Great Wall of China"??? That's about a 1/4 of the world's population right there.

And you think that we can't raise the level of life for a few camel jockies to above scum????

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Worrying about who is to blame for the current design of the Iraqi country is silly (it was the British, by the way).

Blame has nothing to do with my statement about the British. It has all to do with an explanation of why 'crazy camel jockies" are "crazy camel jockies". The west designed the middle east this way....and the plan worked perfectly. We now have a bunch of nations ruled by easily manipulated governments that we can either maintain or sabotage as we see fit.

We propped up the Shau of Iran ..when he was toppled by internal revolt ...we bolstered Sadam to sabotage them. When Sadam grew too big for his britches ...we kicked him out ...and on and on it goes and you still appear to be blind to the pathetic policies the WE have employed in jerking this region around.


...and now we're paying in SPADES.

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There is a golden opportunity for the Iraqi people to have a democratic country. They better choose that way. If they don't, then they can live with some Mullah telling them how to live their lives. Pretty easy choice.

..and the affirmation of civil rights assured that the black community would be grateful for being "liberated" from segragation and oppression", right? Do you remember the Watts (spl?) riots?? You just don't drill 200 years of hatred and oppression into a race and have them let out of the box you've kept them in and expect "normal" (by our 'cheap seat" definition) behavior.
 
Pablo ..here is where you are blind ..or at least short sighted.

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No true Christians tolerated the KKK. The KKK had to wear hoods....I'm not naive enough to think billyboy sheriff wasn't in on it too...but many Christian groups helped bring the KKK to laughing stock status.

So any Christian who didn't fly into an outrage over the KKK was unfaithful? You've got a BIG group who YOU deem "unreal" Christians ..pretty big accusation, Pablo.
So if I asked you to name the Christian organizations that openly denounced the KKK, you would be able to name them ..over the past 100 years? What if I said "No true Muslim tolerated terrorism"?

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And oh, please, stop it with the "you" stuff...

Do you support the myth that all Muslims are "Crazy Camel Jockeys" with religous extremeism as a root cause? DO Pul-eeese read the topic and the theme that many seem to assign to this thing (Islamic).

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I (nor any of my relatives, as if I could have controlled THEM)

And, although perhaps not for you, Pablo, but for many of the board .....the above quote applies to just about everyone on the planet. You will note these quotes:

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Yet I do not see Muslims trying to put a stop to any of this terrorism, either, and not just over in the M.East...I am talking in Euro and Western states...Explain that?

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You are dealing with people who truely believe that what they are doing is approved and blessed by God. They also believe that if they die, they go strait to heaven to sit amongst how ever many virgins-72 I think. So, you have a bunch of people who cant wait to die for their cause.

So ...if you disagree with what I'm asserting here (and I don't really think that you are) ...do you support the "myths" (given the above quotes) that all these "Crazy Camel Jockeys" are would be terrorists waiting to get to heaven to have 72 virgins for losing their life while trying to "kill the infidel"???

Are all ghetto residents "low life, drug crazed, theives? Shall I paint all latino immigrants with the same brush as I do some illegals from Dominica who just happen to be low life thieves? Shall I paint all whites with the same brush as I do the KKK?

The people of Iraq are as diverse as we are here n the US (well almost). They have children ..go to work (when there is work) ..eat, crap, and basically try and eik out a living in a harsh and unpredictable environment. This is something we've never had to face. It's easy for us to judge them from the cheap seats.

I think that you just proved the whole point I was trying to make. Why you're arguing with me is beyond my comprehension.

[ April 10, 2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
 
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Originally posted by MolaKule:

Historically, in my view, the racial problems in America were caused by the so-called left-wing socialist academics and communists who sought to drive a wedge between the races. [/QB]

Yea right, blacks not allowed to vote, advance in the economic system, lynched and beaten on a regular basis, no fair shake in the justice system, segregated out of the rest of society, and it was just a bunch of "commies" who incited racial problems?? I can't claim to have lived in the South during those times but how you can come up an explanation like that astounds me.

Gary, always enjoy your insightful posts. I guess I wonder at what comes first. Strict religious indoctrination and control (closed society no free thought) and backward and substandard social and economic conditions? At this point I believe the religion came first setting the conditions for the rest.
 
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I guess I wonder at what comes first. Strict religious indoctrination and control (closed society no free thought) and backward and substandard social and economic conditions? At this point I believe the religion came first setting the conditions for the rest. [/QB]

Yep. I was thinking something along these lines too. I'd like to see if there is a correlation between Islamic fundamentalism and social and economic oppression. Iran was a fairly wealthy and socially advanced middle eastern country until the Ayatollahs came to power.
Afghanistan? .....well, it was never the flower of the planet, but when the Taliban came into power, it really took a nose dive. These are just anecdotal, so I can't claim that there is any cause and effect here, but I do have a sneaking suspicion that you will never have a prosperous society under Islamic fundamentalism (or any religios fundamentalism for that matter).

[ April 12, 2004, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: VeeDubb ]
 
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Yep. I was thinking something along these lines too. I'd like to see if there is a correlation between Islamic fundamentalism and social and economic oppression. Iran was a fairly wealthy and socially advanced middle eastern country until the Ayatollahs came to power.

Let's discuss Iran for a moment. It is an oil producing nation ..much like Saudi Arabia. Under the Shau of Iran ..we sold them (by we, I mean AT&T, IT&T, etc.) billions of over charged installations that reaped many millions of $$$$ in commisions for those who brokered them. These salesmen rebated a part of that commision directly to the Shau. All this "looting" was done by the "friendly" USA and its companies ..while the majority of Iran is still in the stone age (remember the recent earthquake where many died in mudbrick structures). The despair that the shau allowed fostered a fundamentalist revolt ..they prevailed and sided with the Russians. We responded by pumping up Sadam who turned up his land/border ambitions and kept Iran suffering.

If you were anything like me during that time (given the Iran hostage crisis and Arab terrorism, PLO etc), you were saying, "Finally, the crazy camel jockeys are killing each other". I was pleased about this.

You've got to understand ..the USA was playing a very dangerous chess game with the Soviet Union for about 50 years. We had most of the oil producing nations locked up with good relations with their monarchs. This was absolutely necessary to allow us to continue to support and develop our stategic trade parnters (Japan, Europe, South Korea). Trade, and the prosparity that it enabled, was the chief tool that we used in the Cold War (and many billions of miltary spending). Unfortunately we didn't guard the front or back doors of these monarchies and allowed our private sector to play "neo-colonialists by proxy" (referring to how the colonial powers would conquer a nation and then flood their markets with "their" goods. The Brits in India for example) all under the guardianship of the mighty USA. I'm sure if you dug deep enough you could trace the money trail to some lobbist in Washington D.C. and a subsequent "deal". The Soviets successfully funded, fueled an Islamic revolt ..we lost (btw-our CIA did the exact same thing many times ..main example Afghanistan and OSB). All of this is the "unclean" part of our foreign policy that most of us don't have a clue about. All we see is the unfavorable side effects.


Btw- Although Iran has an Islamic government ...no one of any sophistication supports it. It's a joke to them. They vote for it ..but its with a comical smile on their faces. If you can still go to Iran ..and were walking in downtown Tehran ..you may come upon a storekeeper putting up a "hung" Uncle Sam outside with a sign (in Arabic) saying, "Death to the Infidel USA!". If you then said to the storekeeper, "Hey, I'm an American". He would respond with a smile and say, "Can I help you?". The Tehran Times is much akin to our National Enquire. There was a picture on the cover of the NE that was either a pig that looked like a baby ..or a baby that had features that looked not unlike that of a pig. It was dressed like a baby infant. The Tehran Times posted it with the headline "Proof that Americans have sex with Animals!!" This is for the ignorant masses ..like much of the administration of the nation. They, much like our politicians ..pander to the mob. Since the mob, in their case, is ignorant and for the most part illiterate, the propaganda flows along the lines of an "imaginary" infidel (us, the jew, etc.) to keep them happy and distracted.

Radical Islam is used as a tool for people managment ..much the same way our Christian Right cranks us up with political fury. The main difference is the sophistication and relative comfort of the audience. Radical Islam allows those who want to, to attack Israelis with suicide bombers. The Christian Right endorse the sending of an army to attack some perceived enemy. Is the "enemy" any less "real"? Is the message really any different? That is, after you've filtered it (vision of trying to compensate for defraction when viewing something above and below the water line) to determine the "absolute" value of what you're viewing.

I'm sorry if I don't have a whole lot of continuity in this post ..but its late. I hope that I've given you some things to consider. Keep in mind that there is a flip side to every coin and no matter how much you love this nation (I do, dearly
patriot.gif
) ..if you're honest with yourself ..you can't deny that we've not been totally adhering to the priciples of nobility and good will that we are led to believe. In many cases we've sacrificed what is "right and proper" for what is "necessary to accomplish our goals". In many, many, cases this does serve a "greater good"

...but try telling that to someone on the short end of the deal...walk a mile in their shoes.
 
Gary,
I'm not disagreeing with you and I don't think of people in the Middle East as "those camel jockeys" (BTW, that term doesn't even apply to Iranians who are Aryans; it is really a racial slur for Arabs). Nor do I think we are squeeky clean. Anyways, my only point is that I don't think it is JUST colonialism; I think religious radicalism has a lot to do with what's going on over there. You have the common folk squeezed between two power mongers - the corporations and the religious leaders who exploit the situation. But to imply that it's all about what the West did somehow lets the fundamentalists over there off the hook a bit.

A simple analogy would be an example of someone who was abused as a child (colonialism). So as the kid grows up, maybe he has an attitude problem (fundamentalism) and is an A*hole to everybody that crosses his path. Now we can all feel sorry for him and have pity for what he went through as a kid, but it would be tiring to hear him and his shrink constantly whine about how he was abused as a child to excuse his actions today. At some point, personal responsibility for changing his *current* situation has to kick in.

Seems to me like many of the radicals and terrorists are like the guy who refuses to take any responsibility and just wants to continue to blame others. (BTW, I am not saying all folks in the Middle East are like this. I am specifically referring to the radicals and religious fanatics).

[ April 13, 2004, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: VeeDubb ]
 
VeeDubb

Terrorism is (mainly) about power. The attaining of it by someone who doesn't have it. Radical Islam is "used" to support and fuel that goal. Think of those who have really used it. The PLO ...basically a band of low life thugs that were politically impotent. Hence they used terrorism and assigned it a religous moniker to "validate" themselves. Meanwhile they're still just low life thugs seeking power. It's the same with Hamas, Hesbula, Islamic Jihad, OBL.

Look at someone like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton and how they play the race card. They don't really do anything but cripple blacks with their racial rhetoric (as you demonstated with the abused child) ...but they "use" the race card as an enabler to attain or maintain political clout ..to gain support from one side ...and concessions from another. Meanwhile their supporters get to "blame the jew and the infidel" (the white conspiracy to hold them down) ..and they get the power.


So ...much like our contemporary politicians ...those who seek power typically foster support from the masses by doing two things ...teaching them to fear something ...and giving them someone to blame for it.

My whole point is that radical Islam is political tool ...just like a nuke weapons program. The leadershp of N. Korea is using it as a lever to retain/gain power. The main difference is that in the case of NK ..we just get to hand over $$$ (energy, food, etc.) and the threat will be "contained" (hopefully until Kim dies and more moderate leadership takes over). The world has learned that the fastest way to gain "respect" is to pose a threat. Why do you think so many nations are trying to develope nukes (Iran, N. Korea, etc.) ..it gives them a seat at the big game. We tend to try and "pay" others to sit this one out.


So ..we will hunt and kill the "abused children" of the world who choose to lash out at us with their lethal temper tantrums. I would suggest no other fate for them. I would love to have the honor of being the executioner for all of these thugs (I too belong to a mob ..and demand my pound of flesh for trangressions). It would be negligent (and naive), however, knowing that with such a mass of "abused children" out there ..and the assured emergence of their maladaptive behaviors, to NOT do something about it beyond treating it symptomatically.

That is, terrorsim and radical Islam are mere symptoms of a root problem that goes unattended.
 
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Originally posted by needtoknow:

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Originally posted by MolaKule:

Historically, in my view, the racial problems in America were caused by the so-called left-wing socialist academics and communists who sought to drive a wedge between the races.
Yea right, blacks not allowed to vote, advance in the economic system, lynched and beaten on a regular basis, no fair shake in the justice system, segregated out of the rest of society, and it was just a bunch of "commies" who incited racial problems?? I can't claim to have lived in the South during those times but how you can come up an explanation like that astounds me.

Gary, always enjoy your insightful posts. I guess I wonder at what comes first. Strict religious indoctrination and control (closed society no free thought) and backward and substandard social and economic conditions? At this point I believe the religion came first setting the conditions for the rest. [/QB]

This sign accurately depicts your denial!

 -
 
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So ...much like our contemporary politicians ...those who seek power typically foster support from the masses by doing two things ...teaching them to fear something ...and giving them someone to blame for it.

Gary,
I agree our politicians (indeed most politicians around the world) use sound bites and half truths to control the masses. But I would hardly say that our contemporary politicians are "much like" radical Islamists who call for Jihad and the purposeful targeting of civilians. That is like comparing Joe Republican who thinks allowing immigrants into the country is a bad idea to a serial killer who knocks people off. You might be able to find loose parallels between the two, like they both blame others for their problems, but one is only irritating whereas the other one is a flat out menance to society.

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So ..we will hunt and kill the "abused children" of the world who choose to lash out at us with their lethal temper tantrums. I would suggest no other fate for them. I would love to have the honor of being the executioner for all of these thugs (I too belong to a mob ..and demand my pound of flesh for trangressions). It would be negligent (and naive), however, knowing that with such a mass of "abused children" out there ..and the assured emergence of their maladaptive behaviors, to NOT do something about it beyond treating it symptomatically.

That is, terrorsim and radical Islam are mere symptoms of a root problem that goes unattended. [/QB]

We in fact, "hunt down and kill" abused children every day even in our society. The majority of felons are probably very disturbed individuals with a history of childhood neglect and abuse. They all have stories and I'm sure they are all sad. But, in order to keep order in society, they have to be contained and you don't sit around making excuses for them. And I for one do not "enjoy" the fact that the cops hunt them down and stick them in jail. Nonetheless, it is necessary in order to protect the rest of society. I wish things were different, but it is what it is.

Now it would be great if we always addressed the root causes. Of course that is the long term solution, but in the short run, you don't sit around saying, "oh isn't it interesting that Al Queda wants to bomb us because we support Isreal and colonialized the Middle East so we shouldn't do anything" or "isn't it interesting that this serial killer wants to kill all these women because his mom sexually abused him as a child and we as a society didn't protect him so we should just let it go."

Everybody has a story but not everybody is a radical or a murderer. Despite the conditions in the Middle East, you have moderates like the King of Jordan and Mubarek in Egypt. I simply refuse to believe that there is any excuse for terrorism or serial killers in society and I won't make excuses for them.

Having said that, I completely get that the average Palistinian and Iraqi received a raw deal in life. And it is also understandable that they are not fans of the U.S. I would love to see the next administration take a more symptomatic approach to the Middle East, but I am perfectly confortable with the way the current administration is dealing with the particular fringe group of radicals over there.
 
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But I would hardly say that our contemporary politicians are "much like" radical Islamists who call for Jihad and the purposeful targeting of civilians.

No ...our politicians "use" religous figures to further their agenda. Same with these thugs. They aren't radical Islamists ..their POWER seeking thugs. Radical Mullahs are their tool to recruit and foster support. We need to be far more passively manipulated than a mass of losers. For us it's a game of the Rush Limbaughs bellowing "Get the bums off of welfare! They'll pay taxes and that will solve all our problems!" and the left saying, " The RICH!!! They build their wealth on your backs!!". They both give us our "infidel" (common enemy). We aren't as radical since we live such a life of relative comfort.

As our situation becomes less favorable here ...and we are asked to endure more "discomfort" ..you will see many new "infidels" created to distract us from our perceived despair ..and I venture to say that many people will pay for this with their lives.
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We in fact, "hunt down and kill" abused children every day even in our society. The majority of felons are probably very disturbed individuals with a history of childhood neglect and abuse. They all have stories and I'm sure they are all sad. But, in order to keep order in society, they have to be contained and you don't sit around making excuses for them. And I for one do not "enjoy" the fact that the cops hunt them down and stick them in jail. Nonetheless, it is necessary in order to protect the rest of society. I wish things were different, but it is what it is.

The only flaw in your assertion is that we have "incidents" of abused children that grow up to be maladaptive adults. No matter what situation exists, there are alternatives. What we see are the flukes ..the anomolies. If however, we designed and maintain an environment to promote their emergence I think that you would see more such "anomolies" in far greater numbers. You can't possibly dismiss these peoples goals ..you can only protest the modality and their "choice of targets".

For example ..if every Palestinian bomber peacefully set himself on fire ...you would probably begin to see those people as the victims. Instead, because they lash out in harmful rage, you view them as lunatic radicals (as I do). The conditions are the same ..the goals are the same. Only the choice of how to combat "their" enemy ..their infidel ...is different. We view it from the comfort of our living rooms with our bowl of chips. They view it from refugee camps and looking down tank barrels ..and blades of bulldozers.


Shortly after 9/11, I wanted to find out just how these minds worked. To me, joe average numb dumb American, these people didn't have any reality based in our normal rational space of an origin, intermediate terrain, and destination. They seemed to circumvent many of the normal stages of cause and effect. I joined a Pakistani message board. I would have gone to an Arab message board ..but I wanted something slighty off of the heated path. There I, and other Americans, waged much cultural and idealogical combat with our Muslim counterparts. This gave me tremendous insight into the origins of these issues.

Ulitimately I've learned many things.

No one "wins" a war. There are only those left "less bloodied".
People "fear" us. No one can resist our military. No one can survive without our economy.
We're culturally contagous.
Our politicians are basically navigators for our big business ..wielding the entire might of the strongest and richest nation on the planet.
That to the person being stepped on ..the difference between someone placing their boot on your neck ..or someone who just has VERY BIG FEET and who happens stumble upon you is "none".
That we're so powerful and our reach spans so far that no matter what we do, we shall 'hurt' someone (either in direct action, collateral damage, or "acts of omission").
That meeting "our needs" is many times at "others" expense.

This is typically viewed as some idealogical conflict. This is true only in the "apparent" lines that it draws. In reality it is NO DIFFERENT than post WWI Germany where Hitler took a bancrupt and humiliated population in despair and gave them someone to blame for it. He mobilized a nation that could well have ruled the world with those tools. The main difference is "our perception" of the battle field. I'm sure western Europe didn't think that they were doing anything "wrong" to Germany. Germany had gotten what they deserved for WWI, right? In this case you can have many little Hitlers and a population that spans the globe from which to recruit. Just because they don't wear uniforms and goose step and have tanks manufactured in factories doesn't make it any less a "war for power" by those who have none.

They are JUST AS EVIL as Hitler was ..but let me ask you ...do you say today, in spite of all the atrocities commited by the Nazis, '**** Germans!! If I could, I'd take a shovel to all of them"? No ..you rationalize it in the context of the conditions and resolution of the conflict.


I think that we will see far more warfare and expense in dealing with these who seek power. I don't necessarily see an alternative. By doing so ..we WILL develop regions that foster such radicalism ...are we not conquering and fosterning democracy in Iraq? Heck, we're heading toward the 200 billion $$ mark and it won't end there. Just multiply that for every place where such conditions exist and you will see the end to our task. That is, go ahead and take a shovel to these regions. Conquer them with our military. Have we EVER left a conquered people in ruin?

Have you ever seen the movie "The Mouse that Roared"?
 
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