vw does it again o4 tdi's need 505.01 only!!
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Just about everybody has VW 505.01 oil. Do a Google search and you'll see what I mean. I even discovered a Belgian oil company called Denicol around since 1890 while doing it.
Where on that Amsoil literature does it say that the 10/40 meets VW 505.01? I see VW 501.01 and VW 505. I don't even believe that there is a VW 501.01. Either way, neither of these specifications are VW 505.01.
Please excuse my post if I have mistakenly overlooked something.
BTW, Motul has a 505.01 and of course the Castrol from the dealership has a 505.01. Others will soon follow I am hoping.
[ October 21, 2003, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: FowVay ]
Please excuse my post if I have mistakenly overlooked something.
BTW, Motul has a 505.01 and of course the Castrol from the dealership has a 505.01. Others will soon follow I am hoping.
[ October 21, 2003, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: FowVay ]
I guess, I'm the blind one, your right it does say 501.01 not 505.01. Sorry about
VW 501.01 is an older gas engine spec that has been superseded by VW 502.00. I haven't heard yet if Amsoil will introduce a VW 505.01 formulation and I've talked to their tech services department about it. It would be easy enough to do, since the VW 505.01 oils seem to use a standardized additive chemistry.
TS
TS
Interesting point Blano and G man2.
It sems to me that the un-certifieds, like to refer to manufacturers' requierments only when it suits their adjenda.
The rest of the time they say that the governing bodies such as API and so on is just Old Boys Clubs.
The oil in question here could very well pass, meet, or exceed any of the quoted standards, but only by owner testimonials, and not by the expensive certification process.
When all else fails, there is always the legal department to fall back on.
Or so they say.
Their words, not mine.
[ October 22, 2003, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: userfriendly ]
It sems to me that the un-certifieds, like to refer to manufacturers' requierments only when it suits their adjenda.
The rest of the time they say that the governing bodies such as API and so on is just Old Boys Clubs.
The oil in question here could very well pass, meet, or exceed any of the quoted standards, but only by owner testimonials, and not by the expensive certification process.
When all else fails, there is always the legal department to fall back on.
Or so they say.
Their words, not mine.
[ October 22, 2003, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: userfriendly ]
Here's a verbatim answer fome Amsoil Tech services regarding the VW 505.01 issue.
"Lance, These are European specs and do not directly apply to VW cars operated in North America. Our diesel oils exceed 505.00 and based on the current API ratings they surpass 505.01 as well.Volkswagen's oil specification for its diesel engines is called VW 505.00. Very few motor oils in North
America carry the VW 505.00 rating. Volkswagen calls for API CD rated oil for the North American
market. The problem is that API CD is so out of date that the API forbids the CD rating from being used.
Volkswagen has not been quick to upgrade its oil specification because of a new rating system being
developed by ACEA in Europe. Volkswagen has now upgraded its oil for diesel engines and aligned it to
the new European specs. The old VW 505.00 specification never had a direct crossover to any API oil
ratings. With Volkswagen's new upgraded diesel oil specification with a direct ACEA rating, there will now
be a direct crossover to an API oil rating. It will be at least a year before the new ACEA B4-98 will have an
API equivalent, probably API CH-4. The following article can be found at www.lubrizol.com in the June
Newsline. ACEA Issues New Engine Oil Specifications Test protocols include new and updated tests.
ACEA has issued upgrades to its specifications for gasoline and diesel passenger car engine oils, and
heavy-duty diesel engine oils. First allowable use of the sequences was March 1, 1998. By March 1, 1999,
all new claims to meet ACEA sequences must conform to the 1998 issue. Claims against ACEA 96
sequences will not be permitted after March 1, 2000. The specifications include both increased test
severity and updated technical requirements with no intent to increase severity. An example of this latter
change is the replacement of the OM 364A engine test with the OM 364LA. This engine, which is the inte
r-cooled/low emissions version of the OM 364 engine, is used to evaluate bore polish and piston deposits.
For passenger car diesel engine oils, the following changes were made: ?B1-98 ? Additional parameters
were added to the OM 602A test, and the M111E fuel-economy test was added. ?B2-98 and B3-98 ?
Additional parameters were added to the OM 602A test. ?B4-98 ? This is a new category for oils used in
direct injection diesel engines requiring special quality oils. The category includes a new engine test, the
VW TDI. This four-cylinder , 1.9 liter direct-injection diesel engine is turbocharged and inter-cooled. If you call VW Customer assistance, they will advise you to use a CG-4 rated oil. Our AMSOIL Diesel oils not only meet CG-4 but they far exceed these ratings and even surpass the newer CH-4 and CI-4Thank you, Ed KellermanManager, Amsoil Tech Services Every attempt has been made to ensure that the information provided in this e-mail correspondence is accurate and reliable. However, AMSOIL INC. makes no warranty, guarantee, or promise (express or implied) concerning the content or accuracy of our e-mail response, as it is based solely upon the information provided to us by the e-mail sender.-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 10:49 PM
To: Mail TechService
Subject: Technical Service Contact Form Below are the results of your feedback form. It was submitted by:
Name:
Email:
Date: Friday, October 10, 2003 at 22:49:26
Sponsor ZO: noneConfirmation message sent.Field NameValue
1feedback.setup
NameLance Duchesneau
Zip79606
[email protected]
Comments2004 Volkswagen PD diesel engines, requiring VW specification 505.01 motor oil. At this point, it seems Amsoil products only meet specification 505.00."
I can't figure out what they're saying.
"Lance, These are European specs and do not directly apply to VW cars operated in North America. Our diesel oils exceed 505.00 and based on the current API ratings they surpass 505.01 as well.Volkswagen's oil specification for its diesel engines is called VW 505.00. Very few motor oils in North
America carry the VW 505.00 rating. Volkswagen calls for API CD rated oil for the North American
market. The problem is that API CD is so out of date that the API forbids the CD rating from being used.
Volkswagen has not been quick to upgrade its oil specification because of a new rating system being
developed by ACEA in Europe. Volkswagen has now upgraded its oil for diesel engines and aligned it to
the new European specs. The old VW 505.00 specification never had a direct crossover to any API oil
ratings. With Volkswagen's new upgraded diesel oil specification with a direct ACEA rating, there will now
be a direct crossover to an API oil rating. It will be at least a year before the new ACEA B4-98 will have an
API equivalent, probably API CH-4. The following article can be found at www.lubrizol.com in the June
Newsline. ACEA Issues New Engine Oil Specifications Test protocols include new and updated tests.
ACEA has issued upgrades to its specifications for gasoline and diesel passenger car engine oils, and
heavy-duty diesel engine oils. First allowable use of the sequences was March 1, 1998. By March 1, 1999,
all new claims to meet ACEA sequences must conform to the 1998 issue. Claims against ACEA 96
sequences will not be permitted after March 1, 2000. The specifications include both increased test
severity and updated technical requirements with no intent to increase severity. An example of this latter
change is the replacement of the OM 364A engine test with the OM 364LA. This engine, which is the inte
r-cooled/low emissions version of the OM 364 engine, is used to evaluate bore polish and piston deposits.
For passenger car diesel engine oils, the following changes were made: ?B1-98 ? Additional parameters
were added to the OM 602A test, and the M111E fuel-economy test was added. ?B2-98 and B3-98 ?
Additional parameters were added to the OM 602A test. ?B4-98 ? This is a new category for oils used in
direct injection diesel engines requiring special quality oils. The category includes a new engine test, the
VW TDI. This four-cylinder , 1.9 liter direct-injection diesel engine is turbocharged and inter-cooled. If you call VW Customer assistance, they will advise you to use a CG-4 rated oil. Our AMSOIL Diesel oils not only meet CG-4 but they far exceed these ratings and even surpass the newer CH-4 and CI-4Thank you, Ed KellermanManager, Amsoil Tech Services Every attempt has been made to ensure that the information provided in this e-mail correspondence is accurate and reliable. However, AMSOIL INC. makes no warranty, guarantee, or promise (express or implied) concerning the content or accuracy of our e-mail response, as it is based solely upon the information provided to us by the e-mail sender.-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 10:49 PM
To: Mail TechService
Subject: Technical Service Contact Form Below are the results of your feedback form. It was submitted by:
Name:
Email:
Date: Friday, October 10, 2003 at 22:49:26
Sponsor ZO: noneConfirmation message sent.Field NameValue
1feedback.setup
NameLance Duchesneau
Zip79606
[email protected]
Comments2004 Volkswagen PD diesel engines, requiring VW specification 505.01 motor oil. At this point, it seems Amsoil products only meet specification 505.00."
I can't figure out what they're saying.
They're simply saying that they are not familiar with Volkswagen's product line.
The new 2004 unit injector diesel engine requires specifically a VW 505.01 oil. This oil is only available in 5W-40 viscosity. This rating does not align itself with any ACEA or API rating. A VW 505.01 oil will carry only a 505.01 rating and not a API CI-4 or ACEA B4-02 rating.
Amsoil's very first sentence is completely inaccurate also. The 505.01 spec is not a European spec, it is a manufacturers spec and it applies directly to VW PD diesel engines operated in North America and every other continent on the planet. This is their quote "Lance, These are European specs and do not directly apply to VW cars operated in North America."
If I just spent close to $20,000 USD on a new car I'd follow the manufacturers recommendation until further investigation reveals other alternatives to a very specific issue. Amsoil doesn't seem to know what is going on at VW at this point in the ball game.
The new 2004 unit injector diesel engine requires specifically a VW 505.01 oil. This oil is only available in 5W-40 viscosity. This rating does not align itself with any ACEA or API rating. A VW 505.01 oil will carry only a 505.01 rating and not a API CI-4 or ACEA B4-02 rating.
Amsoil's very first sentence is completely inaccurate also. The 505.01 spec is not a European spec, it is a manufacturers spec and it applies directly to VW PD diesel engines operated in North America and every other continent on the planet. This is their quote "Lance, These are European specs and do not directly apply to VW cars operated in North America."
If I just spent close to $20,000 USD on a new car I'd follow the manufacturers recommendation until further investigation reveals other alternatives to a very specific issue. Amsoil doesn't seem to know what is going on at VW at this point in the ball game.
Fowvay,
I've spoken to Darren Wallace in Amsoils tech services department about VW 505.01. Their viewpoint is that if the oil is only available at dealers, then it's a violation of the Magneussen Moss act. They believe that CI-4 should be the relevant spec for North America TDI's with the PD engine. It will be interesting to see what happens with these engines ....
I did suggest they release a 5w-40, VW 505.01 oil and beat the other major players to market. They are able to make special oils in fairly small batches and still make it profitable.
Whether they release a VW 505.01 oil will probably depend on the # of units sold in the next 1-2 years.
Ted
I've spoken to Darren Wallace in Amsoils tech services department about VW 505.01. Their viewpoint is that if the oil is only available at dealers, then it's a violation of the Magneussen Moss act. They believe that CI-4 should be the relevant spec for North America TDI's with the PD engine. It will be interesting to see what happens with these engines ....
I did suggest they release a 5w-40, VW 505.01 oil and beat the other major players to market. They are able to make special oils in fairly small batches and still make it profitable.
Whether they release a VW 505.01 oil will probably depend on the # of units sold in the next 1-2 years.
Ted
Ted, as you know oil meeting VW 505.01 is available in venues other than the dealership. This is a non-issue. The issue is blending a oil that meets this exact specification and not making unsubstantiated claims that some other specification is "close enough".
When the PD TDI engines start having problems regardless of the cause,, the warranty WILL be voided if VW 505.01 oil was not used. This fact has been stated on numerous occasions and VW even goes to the trouble of publishing literature to give to new owners stressing the importance of using this specific oil.
Since you obviously communicate with lubrication engineers in Europe (you mention ARAL on another board) just as I do you know that there is no correlating specification to the VW 505.01. If we could get the oil companies to divulge what the factory fill specifications are for the Volkswagen TL 521.67 then we'd be much better prepared to make decisions about replacements for the 505.01. Every company I've spoken to keeps this information as secretive as any nuclear weapons launch code for our military. I have even gone so far as to contact a design engineer for Freudenberg-NOK, the manufacturer for all the O-rings and seals in the engine in hopes that they have access to the blend information of the oils that are going to be inside. Even these people have been told to not release any information regarding lubricant composition.
I just don't understand what the big deal is about this oil. Could there be some mystery barrier lubricant that prevents wear on the cam lobes that operate the pump? The last bit of information that I was able to get on 505.01 said that in order to meet the spec the oil had to be TL 521.67 + 500.00 + 505.00 (5W-40 viscosity only) and that there was only one formuation combination that will meet this. We just need to find out what TL 521.67 is.
When the PD TDI engines start having problems regardless of the cause,, the warranty WILL be voided if VW 505.01 oil was not used. This fact has been stated on numerous occasions and VW even goes to the trouble of publishing literature to give to new owners stressing the importance of using this specific oil.
Since you obviously communicate with lubrication engineers in Europe (you mention ARAL on another board) just as I do you know that there is no correlating specification to the VW 505.01. If we could get the oil companies to divulge what the factory fill specifications are for the Volkswagen TL 521.67 then we'd be much better prepared to make decisions about replacements for the 505.01. Every company I've spoken to keeps this information as secretive as any nuclear weapons launch code for our military. I have even gone so far as to contact a design engineer for Freudenberg-NOK, the manufacturer for all the O-rings and seals in the engine in hopes that they have access to the blend information of the oils that are going to be inside. Even these people have been told to not release any information regarding lubricant composition.
I just don't understand what the big deal is about this oil. Could there be some mystery barrier lubricant that prevents wear on the cam lobes that operate the pump? The last bit of information that I was able to get on 505.01 said that in order to meet the spec the oil had to be TL 521.67 + 500.00 + 505.00 (5W-40 viscosity only) and that there was only one formuation combination that will meet this. We just need to find out what TL 521.67 is.
Fowvay,
Give me some time ...I'll figure out what's going on
Ted
ps: I agree with you - even the best CI-4 diesel oils don't meet VW 505.01. In fact, I don't think there is any way they can, since the additive levels are probably too high!
Give me some time ...I'll figure out what's going on
Ted
ps: I agree with you - even the best CI-4 diesel oils don't meet VW 505.01. In fact, I don't think there is any way they can, since the additive levels are probably too high!
On the back of the bottle it says meets or exceeds. Nothing about recommended. Amsoil does its own testing and then it farms out the testing to an independent lab.
As for Blano's problems with their advertising, he refers to a mistake on their web pag where it lumped all the 2 stroke oils on one page and then claimed at the top of the page that it met contradictory specifications. It was a poor way of organizing the page where it lumped all the oils specifications in one location and one could imply that they all met all the specifications. It was changed when Blano mentioned it in this forum but somehow Blano doesn't seem to understand and keeps rehashing this as though Amsoil tried to deceive. Perhaps if he hadn't tried to use the 100-1 2 stroke oil at 16-1 in a KTM he would have had more luck. I checked out the KTM forum and found lots of people running the Series 2000 racing oil with no problems tuning at 50-1.
I have seen a lot of people use the Golden Screwdriver and then blame the results on something unrelated.
I wouldnt use amsoil 100:1 to keep thje dust on my driveway down.
There are more than one instance of Amsoil doing what I mentioned.
Here are two other examples http://www.amsoil.com/products/tcr.htm
http://www.amsoil.com/products/atf.html
[ October 27, 2003, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: blano ]
There are more than one instance of Amsoil doing what I mentioned.
Here are two other examples http://www.amsoil.com/products/tcr.htm
http://www.amsoil.com/products/atf.html
[ October 27, 2003, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: blano ]
I am sorry but I do not see your point? You will have to be more specific. I checked on the first link and could find nothing wrong with the series 2000 2-stroke oil.
Before I look at the second link in detail, could you clarify what is wrong with the first link.
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